Is a Song of Ice and Fire better than Lord of the Rings?

[Andsigil]

Is a Song of Ice and Fire better than Lord of the Rings?

Only if you like envisioning dystopia.

After both reading all of the books and watching the show up-to-date, I think I'm done with ASoIaF.

• Everyone you like gets slaughtered or broken
• Everyone you don't like gets slaughtered or broken
• Everyone in Westeros is miserable. Without exception. There isn't one happy person in the entire world.
• Westeros is as depressing as Oceania in 1984. It's even worse than Ohio.

I'm going to go read Cormac McCarthy's The Road to cheer up now.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

• Westeros is as depressing as Oceania in 1984. It's even worse than Ohio.

I'm going to go read Cormac McCarthy's The Road to cheer up now.

My problem with A Song of Ice and Fire or something like The Wheel of Time is that any message they have is drowned in words. Using human misery as a theme is entirely valid, in my view, but compare A Song of Ice and Fire to something like Nineteen Eighty-Four or The Road. One volume, maybe one hundred thousand words or less? And they each make a devastatingly effective point. You don't need six-to-ten one-thousand-page paperbacks to do that. Even The Lord of the Rings, in three volumes as it is, can be considered one work of about a thousand pages, not unlike say Ulysses in terms of size.

Credible literature doesn't need multi-volume epics. I think one of the reasons Fantasy struggles to break into the space of such credibility is for the very reason of its enormity. People praise Martin for being 'the new Tolkien' or something to that effect but in my opinion he's substantially complicit in the culture which is holding that kind of Fantasy back.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Only if you like envisioning dystopia.

After both reading all of the books and watching the show up-to-date, I think I'm done with ASoIaF.

• Everyone you like gets slaughtered or broken
• Everyone you don't like gets slaughtered or broken
• Everyone in Westeros is miserable. Without exception. There isn't one happy person in the entire world.
• Westeros is as depressing as Oceania in 1984. It's even worse than Ohio.

I'm going to go read Cormac McCarthy's The Road to cheer up now.

Seen like that it could be depressing, but I find the tv series strangely uplifting and some scenes soar. (Dany as Mhyssa springs to mind) I think its a realistic depiction of medieval shenannigans, (apart from Dragons obviously ) it was a brutal age and I look at it as I would the history of the Borgias or the Medici families etc. Its rich and ripe and not to everyones taste.

I also appreciate the way he writes female characters, he gives them agency whether they are little girls or old ladies, not just cliche feisty kick *** babes as in many tv shows. (I am looking at you Moffat).

[Nerwen]

Couldn’t get into the series, myself. Not exactly that it’s bad– I can tell you there’s much worse out there– it just seems like such typical, and to my way of thinking, tedious, “doorstop” fantasy that I really can’t see what all the fuss is about.

So for me the question is, not why would people like ASOIAF/GOT, or even why might some of them– gasp!– like it better “The Lord of the Rings”. People like things for all kinds of reasons. What puzzles me is why, out of dozens of extremely similar works to come out in the last two or three decades, *this* one has caught fire to the extent of being seen as profound, wildly original etc. (And no, that’s not just due to the TV series.) In fact I may as well come out with it now that I think it basically shows how low the bar has been set for popular fantasy. And again, I grant this is one of the better things of its kind, but in my opinion its kind just isn’t all that good.

Yep. Hateful elitist highbrow intellectual meanie snob-type, at your service. Sue me.

However, as for whether calling Martin, “The American Tolkien” is a compliment, a belittlement, or an act of sacrilege– that’s beside the point. Look at the cover of just about anything that remotely qualifies as epic fantasy, and guess who the author gets compared to? It’s just a standard thing.

[FerniesApple]

I wouldnt compare Martin to Tolkien, Tolkien is above and beyond anyone no matter how brilliant. Martin always says he is inspired by Tolkien, but he doesnt pretend to be better, thats impossible imho. He is good at what he does, good solid world building with some very fresh and interesting characters, in particular female characters. he has a knack of making them attractive even if wildly flawed. People have tuned in to this nuanced character led storytelling and its popularity has grown as a result. Its a very long time since I felt so excited by a tv show, maybe it was the XFiles, or Lost, but GOT stands head and shoulders above most dreary tv these days. Its got all the ingredients people like, its good old fashioned entertainment.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What puzzles me is why, out of dozens of extremely similar works to come out in the last two or three decades, *this* one has caught fire to the extent of being seen as profound, wildly original etc.

I think this is a point that is worthy of discussion. I have wondered this myself and haven't found a wholly satisfactory answer.

First, I think part of it is that Martin began ASOIAF at the right time. When A Game of Thrones was published in 1996 what else was going on in fantasy? The Wheel of Time was in full swing at that point, but I can't recall much else of note that was coming out at the time.

Second, Martin certainly is a skilled writer. He is a compelling character writer, an adequate world builder, and is gifted when it comes to getting drama out of his prose (well, at least he used to be). I think Martin became a big deal because he hooked people on his characters and then upped the ante because he killed a number of primary characters. In a way this not only adds to the danger but to the intrigue of the story because the reader wants to know who lives to see the end of the story. While he has many imitators in this regard now, he was one of the first to do this on such a scale. Martin, in fact, credits Tolkien to some extend for pioneering this trail with the death of Boromir.

Digression:
Has Martin been too often to the well with this technique for it to continue to be effective? There is no doubt that the case could be made that he has. There is definitely a progressive diminishing return the more often an author does this. There are two reasons why this is so. The first is, once the reader figures out the style, they know that bad things will happen and there is little point in getting invested in a character because they will die or have other awful things happen. The second reason is, once you kill off all the first generation of characters in the story the author has to rely on second generation characters to carry things on and the reader is almost certain to lose interest to some degree. I think you can see both processes at play in ASOIAF.

However, I should also point out that in spite of appearances and adulation to the contrary, a significant amount of time has passed since Martin has killed off a character of significant reader interest for good. He doesn't really do it as often as people think he does. But he has been making noises lately (this past week in fact) that the killings will resume in the next book and I have no reason to doubt him...which just goes to show that I've figured out the trick and it will not surprise me again going forward (although in my personal case it didn't surprise me the first time because I already knew it would happen).

Aside point of digression:
For the main portion of Martin's fanbase the diminishing returns of character killing doesn't matter because they are already invested enough to see things through to the end.

Back to the main point:
Third, the long gaps in between books I think have, in a way, helped make them into a bigger deal. The gaps have become so long and so publicized that for the outside world the publication of the next book in the series is so rare as to be a noteworthy event. For the fandom obsessing over when the next book will come out is a handy way to keep the fires burning and whip oneself into a frenzy whenever one feels like it.

Fourth, related to the third point, Martin is still alive and producing. Jordan passed away and now The Wheel of Time was finished by Sanderson. Martin is still making ASOIAF which by default adds a level of interest.

Fifth, the TV show. There is no way around the fact that the TV show helped.

I'm curious to see if anyone else has opinions on this issue.

[FerniesApple]

As you said. Its Event tv/books. theres a build up of news and it builds up season to season, each season more spectacular and bloody than the last. I think the tv show has brought the characters to life, great acting etc, but I personally think Peter Dinklage is the single most important element.