Did Denethor see Frodo captured in the Palantir? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 08-23-2014, 05:13 AM

I actually agree that Denethor actually turning traitor is highly unlikely; I was merely suggesting that Sauron had adopted this plan hoping he could turn Denethor traitor, or at least, to set him on some path of action where he would squander what little defensive advantage Minas Tirith in some plan to get rid of his "rival" Aragorn or raze it to the ground just to deny it to another. That latter might be acceptable to Sauron. While he certainly wanted Minas Tirith conquered, I'm not sure if having it still more or less intact would have been as important to him. He probably would have liked to have, as Frodo put it "Two Minas Morgul's grinning out at each other across a barren waste." (or something like that) but I doubt he would consider it essential; one Minas Morgul and a pile of ruins would probably be OK too in his book.
Come to think of it Denethor might have been delusional enough by this point to think Aragorn might not stop the city being destroyed as well, in a literal not metaphorical sense. Old and venerable as Minas Tirith is, given that Aragorn has spent most of his life in the North, Denethor might assume that he plans to let Minas Tirth go to rot and create a new royal seat for himself in Arnor; closer to "home". Gandalf seems OK with letting the city be destroyed, and Aragorn is clearly in league with Gandalf, so maybe he's OK with the end of the city too.

FerniesApple · 08-23-2014, 08:06 AM

Interesting speculations.

I for one think that Sauron used Denethors pride against him. If for example Faramir had had the palantir his lack of pride would have saved him from the folly and madness that overcame Denethor. the pride of Denethor meant that the palantir became like looking through a glass darkly, it obscured and it warped whatever Denethor saw. Faramirs purity would have meant a clear vision. Rather like the pure soul of Frodo meant his heart was not tainted by the Ring until the very end. The seeds of pride ruined many a noble man, it ruined Boromir, it ruined Saruman, it ruined Denethor.

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08-23-2014, 05:13 AM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	I actually agree that Denethor actually turning traitor is highly unlikely; I was merely suggesting that Sauron had adopted this plan hoping he could turn Denethor traitor, or at least, to set him on some path of action where he would squander what little defensive advantage Minas Tirith in some plan to get rid of his "rival" Aragorn or raze it to the ground just to deny it to another. That latter might be acceptable to Sauron. While he certainly wanted Minas Tirith conquered, I'm not sure if having it still more or less intact would have been as important to him. He probably would have liked to have, as Frodo put it "Two Minas Morgul's grinning out at each other across a barren waste." (or something like that) but I doubt he would consider it essential; one Minas Morgul and a pile of ruins would probably be OK too in his book. Come to think of it Denethor might have been delusional enough by this point to think Aragorn might not stop the city being destroyed as well, in a literal not metaphorical sense. Old and venerable as Minas Tirith is, given that Aragorn has spent most of his life in the North, Denethor might assume that he plans to let Minas Tirth go to rot and create a new royal seat for himself in Arnor; closer to "home". Gandalf seems OK with letting the city be destroyed, and Aragorn is clearly in league with Gandalf, so maybe he's OK with the end of the city too.

08-23-2014, 08:06 AM	#2
FerniesApple Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 92	Interesting speculations. I for one think that Sauron used Denethors pride against him. If for example Faramir had had the palantir his lack of pride would have saved him from the folly and madness that overcame Denethor. the pride of Denethor meant that the palantir became like looking through a glass darkly, it obscured and it warped whatever Denethor saw. Faramirs purity would have meant a clear vision. Rather like the pure soul of Frodo meant his heart was not tainted by the Ring until the very end. The seeds of pride ruined many a noble man, it ruined Boromir, it ruined Saruman, it ruined Denethor.