Was the Balrog drawn by the ring?

[Tar-Jêx]

That is a fair point about the Balrog not being awoken by the battles between the dwarves and the goblins, but it did eventually show up. Maybe it was trying to find a way up to them?

On the topic of knowing the ring was there, Maiar like Gandalf and Saruman were not aware if the ring was with them unless they could physically see it.
After all, it IS still just a ring.
The watcher in the water would be an interesting topic for debate, but it is likely that the Balrog was a more powerful entity, more resistant to the magic of the ring. I doubt the Balrog would have pursued the ring because he would not have seen it. It can have a hold on people, but they do need to be somewhat close to it. Sauron's power wasn't so great that people would always go towards the ring like a magnet.
If the Balrog was drawn to the ring, would he have not tried to go past Gandalf, rather than fight him in honourable battle? Or maybe the idea of honourable battle with another Maiar was greater temptation to it.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

That is a fair point about the Balrog not being awoken by the battles between the dwarves and the goblins, but it did eventually show up. Maybe it was trying to find a way up to them?

What do you mean when you say "but it did eventually show up"?! Are you refering to the time when the fellowship enters Moria, or do you think it eventually showed up to the final battle against Balins colony?! I find it hard to believe that the Balrog got lost in Moria, which by all means was his realm, and that it took him 5 years (!) to finally find the Dwarves. I really doubt that. Furthermore I have yet to find evidence that the Balrog took part in this final battle anyway.

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

On the topic of knowing the ring was there, Maiar like Gandalf and Saruman were not aware if the ring was with them unless they could physically see it. After all, it IS still just a ring.

I said earlier that I find this rigid ranking of supernatural beings to be very problematic. The equation "Gandalf and Saruman are Maiar. The Balrog is a Maia aswell. Therefore these three beings have to share the same features" simplifies and blurres the constellation, or relationship, of these different beings. We do not learn anything about the Maiar in the Lord of the Rings because it´s unnecessary information (regarding this context). We do not know that Gandalf, Saruman and the Balrog allegedly have the same essence and origin. What we know is that Gandalf is an wizard and the Balrog is a supernatural and powerful being of evil. We also know that the Ring attracts evil creatures in general. So in this case I would argue that the Balrog did not need to know about the Ring, in any practical way, to be aware and drawn by it.

Edit to clarify: It is hard to determine in what way exactly the Balrog got drawn by the ring. But it doesn´t need to be like a force which turns the Balrog into a mindless slave, leaving him with no choice or will in this matter. It could very well be more like a presence of some kind which draws the Balrogs attention and curiosity.

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

The watcher in the water would be an interesting topic for debate, but it is likely that the Balrog was a more powerful entity, more resistant to the magic of the ring. I doubt the Balrog would have pursued the ring because he would not have seen it. It can have a hold on people, but they do need to be somewhat close to it. Sauron's power wasn't so great that people would always go towards the ring like a magnet.

If the Ring doesnt hold the power to draw evil creatures "like a magnet" why is Frodo so often the primary target of evil creatures who attack the fellowship as a whole?! Why does the watcher in the water grab Frodo first? Why does the Orc captain throw himself with his spear against Frodo?! Why did Shelob ignore Sam to chase Frodo down?! Those are a few to many cases to be mere coincidences. And here is one of Gandalfs remarks to Frodo about this subject:

Originally Posted by The lord of the rings;The fellowship of the ring;The shadow of the past

These Rings have a way of being found. In evil hands it might have done great evil. Worst of all, it might have fallen into the hands of the Enemy. Indeed it certainly would; for this is the One, and he is exerting all his power to find it or draw it to himself.

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

If the Balrog was drawn to the ring, would he have not tried to go past Gandalf, rather than fight him in honourable battle?

Well, it did try to go past Gandalf, didn´t it?! Hence Gandalfs famous "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" outcry. To get any further it had to confront and fight Gandalf because he was standing in its way (on a narrow bridge). Where did you get the idea that the Balrog fought Gandalf because it was the honourable thing to do?!

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Leaf

Well, it did try to go past Gandalf, didn´t it?! Hence Gandalfs famous "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" outcry. To get any further it had to confront and fight Gandalf because he was standing in its way (on a narrow bridge). Where did you get the idea that the Balrog fought Gandalf because it was the honourable thing to do?!

Actually, I suppose that actually does give a little more weight to the "no" side in the "Balrog Wing Argument". If the Balrog DID have wings (and actually was drawn to the ring) why on Arda would it not have simply flown over/under/to the side of Gandalf and the bridge to make a beeline for Frodo? Even if (in some theoretical way) the Balrog could perceive that Gandalf WAS a fellow Maia, it would have been immediately obvious to it that he couldn't FLY?

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, I suppose that actually does give a little more weight to the "no" side in the "Balrog Wing Argument". If the Balrog DID have wings (and actually was drawn to the ring) why on Arda would it not have simply flown over/under/to the side of Gandalf and the bridge to make a beeline for Frodo? Even if (in some theoretical way) the Balrog could perceive that Gandalf WAS a fellow Maia, it would have been immediately obvious to it that he couldn't FLY?

That's been one of my arguments since I joined in the debate. Why would the Balrog not just fly to wherever it wanted to to kill stuff?

Considering how practically everyone needs to see artifacts with their own eyes before determining whether it is the real thing or not, there is little way you could tell if the Ring was real, or even there, without seeing it for yourself. However, it will play with the weaker minds, like the Watcher in the Water.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, I suppose that actually does give a little more weight to the "no" side in the "Balrog Wing Argument". If the Balrog DID have wings (and actually was drawn to the ring) why on Arda would it not have simply flown over/under/to the side of Gandalf and the bridge to make a beeline for Frodo? Even if (in some theoretical way) the Balrog could perceive that Gandalf WAS a fellow Maia, it would have been immediately obvious to it that he couldn't FLY?

Well, this situation would be even more ridiculous when you look at it from Gandalfs perspective. Gandalf sees this winged creature and immediately decides to block it´s way by standing infront of it. Then he decides to destroy the bridge to throw this winged creature into the abyss underneath the bridge. And funny enough it works! Either Gandalf is the most lucky chump or he knew that the wings are just some weird kind of impractical fashion statement for the Balrogs. Imagine his plan didn´t work out as planned: Gandalf screams YOU SHALL NOT PASS. The Balrog flies over Gandalf in a smooth and unperturbed manner. DAMNIT! I didn´t see that coming. It flies, you fool!

[Alfirin]

For most other flying things, one could argue that it may be only capable of soaring/gliding (or only has the strength to get up in the air and then has to rely of soaring to stay up, like many birds) and the cave has no thermals to ride. But for a Balrog even that would not make sense. Since they produce fire (and unlike dragons, that fire seems to come from their whole bodies/the weapons they carry; not just their mouths) they'd basically make their OWN thermals.

[Belegorn]

I don't get the Balrogs have wings argument. The passage says that it's shadow spread out like wings, in others words covered the expanse to either side, not that actual wings made the shadows. Neither in LotR, or in the Silmarillion have I come across Balrogs with wings, or that they could fly. Flying dragons is what gave Melkor an advantage. If his Balrogs could take to the air I'm sure they'd have used that to their advantage too, pelting the enemy with fiery arrows or some such. Also on the bridge Gandalf said "You cannot pass!" four times, not "You shall not pass."

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't get the Balrogs have wings argument. The passage says that it's shadow spread out like wings, in others words covered the expanse to either side, not that actual wings made the shadows. Neither in LotR, or in the Silmarillion have I come across Balrogs with wings, or that they could fly. Flying dragons is what gave Melkor an advantage. If his Balrogs could take to the air I'm sure they'd have used that to their advantage too, pelting the enemy with fiery arrows or some such. Also on the bridge Gandalf said "You cannot pass!" four times, not "You shall not pass."

We must always correct the movie-goers who think it is 'You shall not pass!'

I personally think 'You cannot pass!' is much more assertive, like Gandalf will not let him pass, rather than Gandalf saying, 'Nah, I don't feel like letting you cross.'

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Leaf

What do you mean when you say "but it did eventually show up"?! Are you refering to the time when the fellowship enters Moria, or do you think it eventually showed up to the final battle against Balins colony?! I find it hard to believe that the Balrog got lost in Moria, which by all means was his realm, and that it took him 5 years (!) to finally find the Dwarves. I really doubt that. Furthermore I have yet to find evidence that the Balrog took part in this final battle anyway.

Whatever else might be said about the Balrog, he was either mostly dormant or had become profoundly reclusive. I think it was a little bit of both.

He and the orcs had to be aware of each other and through the orcs awareness, Sauron must have been aware of him too. Unlike Smaug, who Sauron wanted to utilize, the Balrog was in Moria with Sauron's servants and yet the Balrog never left Moria. Was Sauron not interested in utilizing the Balrog in the war, or did the Balrog just refuse to participate?

Personally I think the Balrog's primary motivation was a desire to be left alone. He may have found being on the losing end of the War of Wrath a scarring experience. He may have slept through Balin's occupation, or perhaps he had no desire to meddle with them and possibly alert the world to his presence. Sauron's orcs returning to destroy the colony may have roused him in some way.

Then here comes the Fellowship causing noise and bother. It must have been annoying.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Whatever else might be said about the Balrog, he was either mostly dormant or had become profoundly reclusive. I think it was a little bit of both.

He and the orcs had to be aware of each other and through the orcs awareness, Sauron must have been aware of him too. Unlike Smaug, who Sauron wanted to utilize, the Balrog was in Moria with Sauron's servants and yet the Balrog never left Moria. Was Sauron not interested in utilizing the Balrog in the war, or did the Balrog just refuse to participate?

Personally I think the Balrog's primary motivation was a desire to be left alone. He may have found being on the losing end of the War of Wrath a scarring experience. He may have slept through Balin's occupation, or perhaps he had no desire to meddle with them and possibly alert the world to his presence. Sauron's orcs returning to destroy the colony may have roused him in some way.

Then here comes the Fellowship causing noise and bother. It must have been annoying.

Maybe the Balrog wanted to be left alone. But I find this situation to be confusing anyway. IIRC the Book of Marzabul explicitly tells us that the Dwarves of Balins colony found mithril. Since the easy to reach mithril oreveins were exhausted for thousands of years they probably used the newest and deepest abandoned mine shafts. Exactly those mine shafts which were the reason the Balrog attacked Khazad Dum in the first place. This surely was (from the Balrogs point of view) an absurd, presumptuous affront.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Leaf

Maybe the Balrog wanted to be left alone. But I find this situation to be confusing anyway. IIRC the Book of Marzabul explicitly tells us that the Dwarves of Balins colony found mithril. Since the easy to reach mithril oreveins were exhausted for thousands of years they probably used the newest and deepest abandoned mine shafts. Exactly those mine shafts which were the reason the Balrog attacked Khazad Dum in the first place. This surely was (from the Balrogs point of view) an absurd, presumptuous affront.

My explanation is that the Balrog was dormant in some other part of the mines.

Or perhaps the Balrog was the Watcher in the Water?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Or perhaps the Balrog was the Watcher in the Water?

I think it was possibly the 'spirit' of Caradhras; a diffuse evil force, unconnected to Sauron.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

My explanation is that the Balrog was dormant in some other part of the mines.

Yes, that´s plausible so far. Either that, or the Balrog simply didn't care for the dwarves and their activities, which is less plausible. But what irks me (and I´m repeating myself) is that we still need an explanation for the sudden alertness of the Balrog mere 25 years later when the fellowship arrives in Moria. Why did it stop being dormant?! The noise caused by the fellowship is no satisfactory answer for me since Balin's dwarves most likely caused way more noise and turmoil.

You said earlier:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

...or perhaps he had no desire to meddle with them and possibly alert the world to his presence.

Then again, why is it suddenly okay for the Balrog to blow it´s own cover just for some wanderers?!

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Sauron's orcs returning to destroy the colony may have roused him in some way.

And a bunch of dwarves returning to harvest mithril, fighting with orcs and reclaiming Moria as their own doesn't rouse the Balrog in the first place?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it was possibly the 'spirit' of Caradhras; a diffuse evil force, unconnected to Sauron.

I wonder if anyone has ever definitively presented the idea of The Watcher = The Balrog...

I can't remember ever seeing such a thing but that doesn't mean someone hasn't done it.

Originally Posted by Leaf

Then again, why is it suddenly okay for the Balrog to blow it´s own cover just for some wanderers?!

Maybe he was really frustrated by that point?

I agree, it is a little difficult to explain away.