Gnomes and Fairies

[Galadriel55]

Sorry about the double post, but it has just occurred to me to ask this now.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(Actually, my first question was "what about the use of 'gnome' in The Hobbit, but in Googling that to catch the exact quote, I ended up discovering that the reason I couldn't remember it by heart is because I've never read it--it was only there in the first edition and second editions. It was revised for the third edition, contemporary with the LotR's second edition, but even so, 1966 is fairly late; The Hobbit had been out for nearly 30 years by then and had seen a few translations.

I am a young and unlearned hobbit, and none of the texts I read (aside from those quoted on the Downs) used the word "gnomes". So for me, the issue is largely moot. On the other hand, you've seen the word in context in BOLT, and also in The Hobbit (from the first editions) - what do you think it adds to / takes away from the story? From your perspective, did the taking it out alter the feel of the story in any way?

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Sorry about the double post, but it has just occurred to me to ask this now.



I am a young and unlearned hobbit, and none of the texts I read (aside from those quoted on the Downs) used the word "gnomes". So for me, the issue is largely moot. On the other hand, you've seen the word in context in BOLT, and also in The Hobbit (from the first editions) - what do you think it adds to / takes away from the story? From your perspective, did the taking it out alter the feel of the story in any way?

I think that them being called 'gnomes' and then being renamed 'elves' establishes a very strong atmosphere about them. They are certainly mystical, or magical, beings, and where elves can sometimes be thought of as not magic, 'gnome' removes that idea.

Although we know that elves are magical in the universe, people picking up the books for the first time may get the wrong idea. 'Gnomes' were never spoken of in any final products, but by reading BOLT, you can see the evolution of them.

[Galin]

In the Silmarillion it is recorded that Beor's people called the Elven-king Felagund Nóm, "Wisdom", and his people they called Nómin, "the Wise".

Okay Tolkien himself didn't publish this... but... well I think he was still going to have a version of 'gnome' one way or the other.

Take that Paracelsus!

[Morthoron]

It seems quite possible that Paracellus borrowed gnome from Greek genomos meaning "earth-dweller"; therefore, it is equally likely that Tolkien eventually eschewed gnome for its Greek roots, referring instead to Elf (Elves), which are etymologically of Scandinavian/Germanic origin as are the dwarves in his cosmology.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

On the other hand, you've seen the word in context in BOLT, and also in The Hobbit (from the first editions) - what do you think it adds to / takes away from the story? From your perspective, did the taking it out alter the feel of the story in any way?

I feel I should make sure to clarify that I did not grow up on a diet of the earlier editions--nothing but the Third and later in my formative years.

Even apart from "garden gnomes" (not something I have ever really encountered firsthand even then), I knew the word from one of the Oz books--the third one, maybe? I never read the entire L. Frank Baum series, just the few that were in our local library, and did not reread them to the extent that they were drilled into my head like a Tolkien book, but I did have the initial impression of them as small, unlovely, creatures--perhaps more similar to goblins than Elves.

That said, I like the word itself. (Good catch, by the way, Galin--without the "g" at the front, I'd never noticed the similarity in "Nóm"--Tolkien may have dropped the concept, but perhaps he hadn't quite done so without some regret.) The Grecian roots of the word work to my linguistic aesthetics, and I like the idea that there was a Common Speech word for "Noldo."

I don't know if I've been as clear I should be, so I'll put it on the record just in case: "the Gnomes" refered to the Noldor--who were the Noldoli in the Book of Lost Tales, but the term Gnome lasted past the change from Noldoli to Noldor by nearly two decades. "Gnomes" was not replaced by "Elves," but dropped, in the same way that "Fairies" was dropped as a synonym of "Elves"--but with a difference: All Gnomes (Noldor) were Elves (Eldar).

Actually, now that I think about it--even though I don't personally like the use of fairies (I'm indifferent there, whereas I genuinely miss Gnomes), I wonder if Tolkien impoverished himself potentially. If Gnomes=Noldor, and Elves=Eldar (RATHER than Quendi), Fairies could have been used to be the Common Speech/English equivalent of Quendi (the entire species).

I should pay closer attention to how Tolkien uses the two words in the BoLT as we read forward. Elves and Fairies are PROBABLY just straight-up synonyms, but I wonder if maybe there's a nuance. (Of course, Quendi subdivided into Eldar and Avari is a later, post-BoLT terminology, but there was a similar structure in the BoLT: the Elves who went to Kor and the "Ilkorins," the ones who did not).

[Mithalwen]

Gnome makes me smile because I was Sixer of the Gnomes in the Brownies back when God was a boy (or girl). But I have started reading BoLT today, and so far so, good. Once again, I am struck by just how well Christopher Tolkien writes. And by his rather dry sense of humour.

[jallanite]

Any author may use any word to describe any fantasy race. Tolkien dropped fairy as a synonym for elf because he felt that its use by Victorian fantasy writers, principally children’s writers, had somewhat spoiled the word.

Tolkien also refers to the use of fairies by Shakespeare and Michael Drayton in particular.

I remember as a child not distinguishing clearly fairy and angel, not noticing in particular that angels in pictures had bird wings while fairies had insect wings. But fairies might be diminutive or human-sized while elves were always diminutive in the books I read. Also fairies were generally female while elves were male. The word gnome was usually usually not clearly distinguished from elf. Santa Claus had as assistants elves and gnomes.

I of course gradually learned better.

So I don’t recall when I first read The Hobbit as a child being particularly surprised by Tolkien’s human-sized, wingless elves. I may have then imagined Tolkien’s elves as being taller than Tolkien’s hobbits but shorter than human beings. I don’t remember exactly.

Later I recall a talk with my father who knew of my enthusiasm for The Lord of the Rings and read Fellowship to understand it. He did not like the book at all, being put off by the constant appearance of little folk: hobbits and elves. I remember explaining to him that Tolkien’s Elves were human-sized, not small.

That Tolkien dropped the word fairy and the word fay after The Book of Lost Tales makes full sense to me. Tolkien knew that fairy was a corruption of French Faërie, meaning the realm of the fées. And the French feminine noun fée came from the Latin word fata, taken as a feminine noun although it was in fact the neuter plural of the Latin word fatum, past participle of the infinitive fari ‘to speak’ meaning ‘thing spoken, decision, decree’ and used to mean ‘prophetic declaration, prediction’, hence ‘destiny, fate’. Better to use the Germanic word elf which is not known to be a corruption of a corruption.

Still, Tolkien’s word quendi for the original name of the Elves was said by him to mean ‘speakers’ which may reflect the genuine etymology of fée.

Gnome is even better dropped, in my opinion, as gnome is a known invented word of Paracelsus and is used in fairy tales and common use mostly for beings of the Dwarf type, hence the use of gnom for Dwarf in the Russian translations. See https://www.google.cca/search?q=gnom...w=1200&bih=740 .

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Still, Tolkien’s word quendi for the original name of the Elves was said by him to mean ‘speakers’ which may reflect the genuine etymology of [I]fée.

Possibly, but it's a pretty logical thing to have a name that reflects the ability to speak. If you are the first species that can speak and understand that it's the first species that can speak, I see no reason for them not to boast the fact. As a real-life example, one of the two main theories for the origins of the root slav, slavyane is slovo: word, so slavyane are people who speak with words (Wikipedia has a nice page about it, but sadly I don't think this one has an English version). Surely Quendi are no worse.

[jallanite]

I agree with you. I posted only that quendi “may reflect the genuine etymology of fée.” The word may was very intentional.

A somewhat imperfect English translation of your link is available at http://translate.google.ca/translate...BD&prev=search . Thanks for providing the link. It has more information than the English version of Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs#D...he_early_Slavs .

[Mister Underhill]

Interesting thread!

So I have this theory that names and words in fiction -- especially fantasy and sci-fi -- are far more important to the overall effect of the fiction than is generally recognized. Take J.K. Rowling. My theory is that her most prodigious gift, and her most important talent in terms of accounting for her outrageous success, is her Dickensian flair for names. Muggle. Hogwarts. Dumbledore. Severus Snape. The list goes on and on (and on). Names have power. There is nothing quite like the perfect name for a thing. A Christmas Carol is a great story, but I wonder if it would be as enduring without those names. Ebenezer Scrooge. Likewise Sherlock Holmes.

I think the most important word in Tolkien is probably hobbit. In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Great word. It's most readers' introduction to the professor and Middle-earth. If it were The Gnome ("In a hole in the ground there lived a gnome."), I don't know, man. There is strong magic in the exact right word.

"Gnome" to me conjures a much different set of associations than "elf". Garden gnomes have been with us for quite some time apparently, per Wikipedia. That's probably the primary association there. "Elf" on the other hand has a more variable feel. Of course I grew up in the 70s so it's hard to say how much the Professor's elves had already impacted the associations connected with that word. Nowadays it's inextricably bound up with Tolkien-influence.

But for me, aesthetically, even "elf" I'm not wild about. I've always had a bit of a standoffish relationship with elves, but it never occurred to me to wonder if maybe it was simply because they were called elves.