The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

[Galin]

I though that after all we have been through you at least recognize another possibility that wouldn't leave contradiction and that it has very strong arguments that could prove this (until now I haven't seen anyone who couldn't actually see my possibility or at least see dubious interpretation except you of course).

Actually more than once I've said that I recognize the 'possibility' of your argument now that we have spoken. But no, I don't agree that your argument is 'very strong', sorry.

It's my opinion but if I'm right what would be the height of the race in which their shortest are 6'6''? about 7' (since Tolkien never gives a really exact height). But like I said the point isn't that but the fact that nothing supports your last interpretation.

Yet you already agreed that my interpretation of the 'artwork quote' itself is a valid interpretation!

Galin said: Yet you haven't proven one is later than the other however. If you can I would love to know myself.

Arathorn responded: I said to forget that since independent of the date both says the same thing (to me of course).

So you want me to forget that you stated that you would trust CJRT more than W. Hammond, even though both descriptions are Tolkien-written and you can't illustrate which is later than the other. The point was: the idea that CJRT published one and Hammond and Scull published the other has nothing to do with the date of the texts.

That was the thrust of this part of the discussion. And yes both say the same thing 'to you' obviously. But I've no idea why that should mean I should 'forget it'.

I was saying that Chris already "posted" a lot about Eldar height so why didn't he posted that? Or do you think he never saw that passage?

Now you're just repeating the question: as Christopher Tolkien himself published parts of the description in question, my guess is that he both saw and read the whole set of texts in which Tolkien reacts to the artwork of P. Baynes, which is a natural enough assumption in my opinion.

And I've already responded to this: you'll have to ask him why he didn't publish it all himself in Unfinished Tales, instead of allowing Hammond and Scull or J. Rateliff to publish other parts of it. He doesn't explain this... the problem remains, it seems to me, that you're trying to answer for him by suggesting that the parts he didn't publish in The History of Middle-Earth or elsewhere are somehow lesser in some way.

Or if not I've no idea what your argument about this really is.

And while you're at it maybe ask CJRT if the whole of these descriptions are going to be published at some point, now that the artist has passed on.

Galin wrote: That's not how I would characterize what I prefer to do

Arathorn responded: " I don't write the texts: if I see something I think contradicts something else, I'll note it" that was said by you and pretty much proves what I was talking about

Well, what you were talking about was the assertion that I: '... prefer to put more contradiction in a work that already has a lot of them...'

Which is not true. What I prefer to do is interpret a passage honestly. I don't 'prefer' more contradiction. I'll gladly read two (or more) passages in such a way that they can be said to agree -- but any arguable 'wriggling' in order to say that two passages 'agree' is a subjective measure.


And with respect to 'more contradiction' in another context, see my posts about 'canon' where I am often arguing that some are, in a sense 'creating' contradiction, or accepting 'contradiction' from an internal perspective where no contradiction 'truly exists' (again from an internal viewpoint), in my opinion.

Of course I am simplifying that argument for brevity here.

[arathorn]

The truth be said there is nothing that supports your thoughts about your interpretation. It's just a lonely passage with nothing backing that up while the other where Noldor and Numenoreans are seem as equal in height has a lot of notes including late ones.
I've seen you trying to match up Galadriel height of 6'4'' (as the tallest of all the woman of the Noldor) with you interpretation that the Noldor woman average 6'(ignoring "seldom less" in my opinion anyway) so she could be the tallest. Now come on!! we both know that even accepting your interpretation a 4 foot difference between the tallest and the average doesn't make sense at all.
That being said you tried to fit that so why can't you fit the other passages that are much easier. I mean that hole passage doesn't even make sense even more when he talks about Celeborn being 6'4'' too, even knowing he is a Teler LORD and recognized as tall, and by you 6'6'' is their average so how can he be below that??? - NOW THAT'S AN INCONSISTENCY WE SHOULD GIVE MORE WEIGHT TO.

[Galin]

The truth be said there is nothing that supports your thoughts about your interpretation.

There are (at least) two descriptions Tolkien made in reaction to the Baynes artwork, one about the Eldar, the other about the Numenoreans in which Elendil, in my opinion, is much shorter than in yet another note about Elendil's height. Elendil being 'only' 7 feet tall-ish (whether you agree with this or not) is included in my opinion along with the text on the Eldar -- since these texts do have an arguable connection, at least.

In any case it hardly matters. All we need is one text in which Tolkien changes his mind, and an interpretation of that text.

I've seen you trying to match up Galadriel height of 6'4'' (as the tallest of all the woman of the Noldor) with you interpretation that the Noldor woman average 6' (ignoring "seldom less" in my opinion anyway) so she could be the tallest. Now come on!! we both know that even accepting your interpretation a 4 foot difference between the tallest and the average doesn't make sense at all.

Four foot difference? Are you referring to something I said at another site? I would have to refresh my memory with my actual post and argument if so.

I mean that hole passage doesn't even make sense even more when he talks about Celeborn being 6'4'' too, even knowing he is a Teler LORD and recognized as tall, and by you 6'6'' is their average so how can he be below that??? - NOW THAT'S AN INCONSISTENCY WE SHOULD GIVE MORE WEIGHT TO.

Again I would have to see what I actually said, in full context, before (possibly) responding to what you are claiming I said.

Also large letters can be seen as yelling

[arathorn]

There are (at least) two notes Tolkien made in reaction to the Baynes artwork, one about the Eldar, the other about the Numenoreans in which Elendil, in my opinion, is much shorter than in yet another note. Elendil being 'only' 7 feet tall-ish is part of my opinion as I read the text on the Eldar -- since these texts do have an arguable connection, at least.

In any case it hardly matters. All we need is one text in which Tolkien changes his mind, and an honest interpretation of that text.

So you suggest that because he made Elendil and the nobles Numenoreans shorter 'The Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men, their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses.' it would have something to do with your interpretation about the Eldar being 6'6"?

Four foot difference... huh?

You know what I mean... that's like the difference between me and my uncle and I'm nothing spectacularly tall and neither is my uncle very short.

Passages that you claim are 'much easier' that is.

You are starting not to think rationally if you think 6'4" is the tallest of a people that average 6' and my interpretation only take 6'6" as a minimum thus the average being close to 7'(but not seven which are the Noldor more often). If that's not an easier claim at least in comparison to Galadriel's contradiction I'm done.


Yet again I can't follow what argument you claim I am making on some other site at some point in the past. Since I haven't made the argument here yet, what you are doing here is characterizing something I said elsewhere, as you see it...

... and then arguing with your characterization. I would have to see what I actually said before responding, and in full context.

Stop with explanations... you know you tried to fit 6' average with 6'4" of Galadriel. I mean even I that don't actually like inconsistencies know that there is no solution.

[Galin]

So you suggest that because he made Elendil and the nobles Numenoreans shorter 'The Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men, their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses.' it would have something to do with your interpretation about the Eldar being 6'6"?

The shortening of Elendil (in my opinion, and only worded that way if this text is later) from nearly 8 feet tall (UT) to around 7 feet tall (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork) connects to my opinion about the Eldar (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork). We have been over this matter of Elendil at another thread at this site.

You are starting not to think rationally if you think 6'4" is the tallest of a people that average 6' and my interpretation only take 6'6" as a minimum thus the average being close to 7' (but not seven which are the Noldor more often). If that's not an easier claim at least in comparison to Galadriel's contradiction I'm done.

Again, I stand by what I actually said at some other site. Not what you claim I said at this site.

Stop with explanations... you know you tried to fit 6' average with 6'4" of Galadriel. I mean even I that don't actually like inconsistencies know that there is no solution.

This seems to be your argument style all too often. Sorry, I don't agree with some of your interpretations of Tolkien, and some of your interpretations of what you think I said somewhere.

You could link to the actual discussion, for full context, and my argument can be represented in my own words -- that is, for anyone interested in reading some discussion elsewhere on the web, some time ago.

Anyone having trouble sleeping?

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

The shortening of Elendil (in my opinion, and only worded that way if this text is later) from nearly 8 feet tall (UT) to around 7 feet tall (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork) connects to my opinion about the Eldar (Tolkien's reaction to P. Baynes artwork). We have been over this matter of Elendil at another thread at this site.

Anyone having trouble sleeping?

So what are your thoughts exactly about the matter? That the Numenoreans were taller than the Noldor... please explain because I admit this part just got interesting.
Hey I'm from Brasil and here at least it's not that much late.

[Galin]

The matter of Elendil's stature in UT versus Elendil's stature in the 'artwork notes' has already been discussed in a thread here at Barrow Downs, including my commentary about that, and my commentary about Galadriel and other texts, and so on...

... a thread which you took part in, Arathorn.