Hard Winters Planning/Discussion Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

piosenniel · 06-05-2015, 10:33 PM

Firefoot's post from the Meadhall Discussion thread (#3996)

Are we starting on the day the caravan gets there?

piosenniel · 06-05-2015, 10:33 PM

Nogrod's post from the Meadhall Discussion thread (#3997)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Are we starting on the day the caravan gets there?

It could be a nice spot to start. At least quite a dramatic way of doing it?

What do you others think?

piosenniel · 06-05-2015, 10:33 PM

Firefoot's post from the Meadhall Discussion thread (#3998)

That is fine with me - like you said, a nice dramatic start. I will probably put off introducing Leof's sister until a bit later though (I've already written their reunion and I think it would fit better maybe a month or so later?).

One thing I just want to question... it seems a little unlikely to me that Scarburg would get hit so hard by the winter, but the surrounding areas had enough surplus from their harvests that they're able to send aid... Scarburg is only about 50 mi from Edoras, which isn't far when it comes to weather systems. This seems a bit isolated.

Also, doing some research on previous harsh winters, the Long Winter in Rohan lasted November-March with Rohan under snow for five months - the winter described in Nogrod's post sounds like snow cover for seven (October-May), so we're talking about by far the worst winter in Rohan's history.

I don't want to criticize the work you've done, Nogrod, since I really appreciate it, but I just wanted to put in perspective how bad of a winter we're talking about (maybe snow cover from November to March as in the Long Winter just doesn't seem like a very harsh winter to a Finn, lol - actually, it doesn't seem that absurd to me, either...).

An interesting point that seems relevant whatever way we go though, also about the Long Winter: "The melted snow caused great floods with the Entwash becoming a vast fen." Seeing as Scarburg is quite near the Entwash...

(Source.)

piosenniel · 06-05-2015, 10:35 PM

Firefoot's post from the Meadhall Discussion thread (#3999)

Also been doing some research on hay, and looks like it's a crop that gets harvested two or three times a year, so the horses should be okay, anyway.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 06-06-2015, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Also, doing some research on previous harsh winters, the Long Winter in Rohan lasted November-March with Rohan under snow for five months - the winter described in Nogrod's post sounds like snow cover for seven (October-May), so we're talking about by far the worst winter in Rohan's history.

I don't want to criticize the work you've done, Nogrod, since I really appreciate it, but I just wanted to put in perspective how bad of a winter we're talking about (maybe snow cover from November to March as in the Long Winter just doesn't seem like a very harsh winter to a Finn, lol - actually, it doesn't seem that absurd to me, either...).

I was about to point that out, too. I think it's just Finnish thinking

In normal countries (well, okay, in countries in latitude and climate similar to Rohan, anyway), winter would last December to February, and snow starts to appear/melts away in average sometime in December/March (say mid-March, meaning those tiny patches on the ground here and there). It can appear for a day in November or March, but any other month there is something weird. And again, in the age of peasants tilling their not-very-extensively-farmed fields with whatever they can, even a hail just before harvest can cause serious problem, and even a few weeks difference in the snow's coming can be disasterous. A month should do it. Also, since I am talking about it, temperatures below 0°C are also sufficient

(for the benefit of Finns who might start suggesting -20 is too warm. Between 0°C to -10°C is totally enough! It's just needed that the snow doesn't melt!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefoot

An interesting point that seems relevant whatever way we go though, also about the Long Winter: "The melted snow caused great floods with the Entwash becoming a vast fen." Seeing as Scarburg is quite near the Entwash...

Something to look forward to in a couple of weeks of our RPG, then

Galadriel55 · 06-06-2015, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Also, since I am talking about it, temperatures below 0°C are also sufficient

(for the benefit of Finns who might start suggesting -20 is too warm. Between 0°C to -10°C is totally enough! It's just needed that the snow doesn't melt!).

It just has to be enough to be colder than usual - anyone wants to take an estimate? But if it's only like -10C, I doubt there would be serious amputation-meriting frostbite cases. Mild ones are possible, and cases of being cold all the time (and therefore all the consequences of that, including a low immune response

) would be very common due to lack of appropriate clothing (shapka-ushankas weren't yet invented, I presume

). But perhaps there was a period of extreme cold that only lasted less than a week, not the whole winter. So if anyone is still considering frostbite, this is a possible explanation. If we're going to go for it, I might have Ledwyn blacken a minor body part to make her further unstable.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 06-06-2015, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It just has to be enough to be colder than usual - anyone wants to take an estimate? But if it's only like -10C, I doubt there would be serious amputation-meriting frostbite cases. Mild ones are possible, and cases of being cold all the time (and therefore all the consequences of that, including a low immune response

) would be very common due to lack of appropriate clothing (shapka-ushankas weren't yet invented, I presume

). But perhaps there was a period of extreme cold that only lasted less than a week, not the whole winter. So if anyone is still considering frostbite, this is a possible explanation. If we're going to go for it, I might have Ledwyn blacken a minor body part to make her further unstable.

Totally not a problem, I am sure. I was talking about temperatures during the day, temperatures during the night could drop much further. Also, it is totally okay if you have a single night, or even day, when the temperatures are really low (even if it's been -8°C the whole winter, one day you can have suddenly a 20-degrees drop just because the weather is messy), you go out to the forest without proper clothing, or a badger steals your gloves, then you return late and get lost, come home late at night, and whoops, and you have a good start for having some body part amputated eventually

Firefoot · 06-06-2015, 05:16 PM

I think someone said Rohan was sort of similar to France, so here are the temperature profiles of a Lyon and Dijon (I literally know nothing about Europe but they look pretty inland and close-ish to mountains to seems comparable to Rohan geographically):

Lyon

Dijon

So actually, I think the temperature profile proposed by Nogrod isn't too bad, maybe just gets a little too cold too fast and lingers a bit too long. But in the middle of winter, I would definitely say -20 C as a low isn't unreasonable.

Two winters ago, Chicago had one of the worst winters in its recorded weather history, where we alternated weeks basically where it would be about 25 F/-4 C and snow heavily, then drop to a high of about 5 F/ -15 C. The alternating dumping snow and bitter cold temperatures was brutal (and this is a city used to having snow on the ground all the time from late Dec - mid March). Geographically, we're not similar to Rohan, but we're pretty similar to France in latitude.

Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be that cold for frostbite to occur - you just have to be exposed for longer if it's less cold. (I had one patient who just liked walking barefoot in the snow... guess what, he lost one of his feet.

)

(Aren't you guys proud of me? I even converted temperature scales for you

)

Firefoot · 06-06-2015, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And again, in the age of peasants tilling their not-very-extensively-farmed fields with whatever they can, even a hail just before harvest can cause serious problem, and even a few weeks difference in the snow's coming can be disasterous. A month should do it.

I like the idea of a hail storm a lot - make it more realistic that the food shortage be more localized to the Scarburg area.

littlemanpoet · 06-07-2015, 05:27 AM

On the RPG thread itself, we'll need to describe weather conditions without the benefit of all the modern amenities we're so used to, such as temperature, fronts, patterns, and all that. We may want to consider developing a vocabulary we can use, or have our copies of LotR and The Hobbit ready to hand so we can see what Tolkien did.

One tool will be to describe the weather from the perspective of your character: how does it feel? What is seen? Heard? tasted? smelled?

06-05-2015, 10:33 PM	#1
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Firefoot's post from the Meadhall Discussion thread (#3996) Are we starting on the day the caravan gets there? Last edited by piosenniel; 06-05-2015 at 11:22 PM.

06-05-2015, 10:35 PM	#4
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Firefoot's post from the Meadhall Discussion thread (#3999) Also been doing some research on hay, and looks like it's a crop that gets harvested two or three times a year, so the horses should be okay, anyway. Last edited by piosenniel; 06-05-2015 at 11:23 PM.

06-07-2015, 05:27 AM	#10
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Middle Earth weather vocabulary On the RPG thread itself, we'll need to describe weather conditions without the benefit of all the modern amenities we're so used to, such as temperature, fronts, patterns, and all that. We may want to consider developing a vocabulary we can use, or have our copies of LotR and The Hobbit ready to hand so we can see what Tolkien did. One tool will be to describe the weather from the perspective of your character: how does it feel? What is seen? Heard? tasted? smelled?

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06-06-2015, 05:16 PM	#8
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	I think someone said Rohan was sort of similar to France, so here are the temperature profiles of a Lyon and Dijon (I literally know nothing about Europe but they look pretty inland and close-ish to mountains to seems comparable to Rohan geographically): Lyon Dijon So actually, I think the temperature profile proposed by Nogrod isn't too bad, maybe just gets a little too cold too fast and lingers a bit too long. But in the middle of winter, I would definitely say -20 C as a low isn't unreasonable. Two winters ago, Chicago had one of the worst winters in its recorded weather history, where we alternated weeks basically where it would be about 25 F/-4 C and snow heavily, then drop to a high of about 5 F/ -15 C. The alternating dumping snow and bitter cold temperatures was brutal (and this is a city used to having snow on the ground all the time from late Dec - mid March). Geographically, we're not similar to Rohan, but we're pretty similar to France in latitude. Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be that cold for frostbite to occur - you just have to be exposed for longer if it's less cold. (I had one patient who just liked walking barefoot in the snow... guess what, he lost one of his feet. ) (Aren't you guys proud of me? I even converted temperature scales for you )