Silmarillion - Chapter 22 - Of the Ruin of Doriath

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

King Naugladur, breaking down what you said, first regarding Nargothrond:

In 'The Children of Hurin", it is said that the Petty-Dwarves hated the Exiles, for the Noldor had stolen their lands. We also know that the Elves did not understand that the Petty-Dwarves were incarnates and hunted them down for sport. Furthermore, we know that, while the other Dwarves resented the wrongs done to their kin, they were eager to work with the Elves, because both sides had gains from the cooperation.

There's no information that Finrod behaved that way regarding Nargothrond. Even Mîm didn't accuse him of that kind of behaviour, let alone any other Dwarves.

Looking second, at the issue of Húrin and Túrin:

While Turin had no rights on Finrod's hoard, Hurin ought to respect Turin's promise of paying a ransom to the Dwarf and not slay him. Moreover, Mim's betrayal was done in order for the Petty-Dwarf race to live a little longer, since the Orcs had Mim's surviving son as a hostage. Finally, Mim betrayed the Outlaws, but demanded Turin not to be harmed.

I think there was some confusion earlier, about whether Túrin had any claim on Finrod's hoard. You appear to be saying that it is just an issue of Húrin sparing Mîm's life, on the grounds that his son had done so at an earlier time. But one could argue that the deal between Mîm and Túrin was broken because of the betrayal of the former.

While Mîm demanded that Túrin not be harmed, did he honestly think that Morgoth and Sauron were beings of their word? This is a place and time with no equivalent of the Geneva Conventions. While the Orcs promised that Túrin would not be killed, this allows a lot of latitude to Morgoth, who can do what he likes, as long as he doesn't kill him. Gwindor is a particular case in point. Húrin could have pointed out (if he had been in a mood to talk) that Mîm by his actions gave his son a possible fate worse than death. Of all people, Húrin knew what it was like to be kept alive but tormented by Morgoth.

Looking third, about Thingol:

Coming to Thingol, what I suggested is that Thingol demands a compensation for the Kinslaying in every sort he wants and later, after the Sons of Feanor demanded the Silmaril, they enter negotiations concerning its surrender by Thingol to its rightful owners.

It doesn't seem that Thingol was interested in any compensation from the sons of Fëanor; all he wanted was to have as little to do with them as possible, including banning any use of Quenya. By contrast, he allowed into his kingdom his four grand-nephews and grand-niece, Galadriel, whom he felt had nothing to do with the Kinslaying. Also, he kept in touch with Fingolfin and his people, whom he felt had atoned for what they did.

As before, I agree that he should have given up the Silmaril to the sons of Fëanor, as it was theirs. However, it would have helped if an apology had been given by Celegorm and Curufin, particularly the former, for their kidnapping and planned forced marriage of Lúthien. Indeed, I'm very surprised that Maedhros and Maglor didn't get in touch and dissociate themselves from what their brothers had done, which was particularly disgusting behaviour for Elves.

Dearest Faramir Jones,

First and foremost, I do not think Mim would like to remember names and faces of those who slew his kin. He never accused Finrod of doing something like this, but it is stated that the grudge harbored by the Petty-Dwarves and the Exiles (the proud ones from over the Sea in Mim's words) was the fact that the Noldor seized the lands belonging to the Petty-Dwarves. Nargothrond being the only one specified area where the Petty-Dwarves were evicted, we can surmise that, while he may not wished it, or never took part in it, Finrod built his kingdom on the blood of the harmless Petty-Dwarves.

Coming to Hurin and Turin, I stated before that Turin had no legal claim on Finrod's hoard. Turin had made two promises to the Dwarf: 1) that no man under him would slay Mim and 2) that he would pay him a "danwedh" in gold for his son. Mim's betrayal was not willing, he did it in order to save the life of his son, who was held hostage by the Orcs. His effort to secure Turin's life shows the measure of Mim's respect towards the Man. After all, Mim hated the Outlaws (who had killed his son and made him a hostage in his own home) but respected Turin. Only Turin could nullify his promise to Mim, which he did not.

Coming to Thingol and the sons of Feanor, I do agree that the behavior of Celegorm and Curufin was the worst they could do. It is quite possible that they told their tale as they wanted to Maedhros, who was not welcome into Doriath, either and thus he could not gather information from Thingol. But, since Thingol kept in his possession something he had no better a legal claim on than Morgoth, the attack was the only solution. And, IMO, f it was Maedhros who led it, and not Celegorm, things would have been better for both sides.

Waiting for your response,

King Naugladur.

[Faramir Jones]

King Naugladur, looking again at the three issues:

First and foremost, I do not think Mim would like to remember names and faces of those who slew his kin. He never accused Finrod of doing something like this, but it is stated that the grudge harbored by the Petty-Dwarves and the Exiles (the proud ones from over the Sea in Mim's words) was the fact that the Noldor seized the lands belonging to the Petty-Dwarves. Nargothrond being the only one specified area where the Petty-Dwarves were evicted, we can surmise that, while he may not wished it, or never took part in it, Finrod built his kingdom on the blood of the harmless Petty-Dwarves.

We don't have enough information about Finrod's responsibility; all we have is a general comment about what was done by the Noldor. The word 'evicted' was never used to describe what had happened to the Petty-dwarves in Nargothrond. All Mîm said was that his people were the first ones who dug there, but he didn't say what had happened to them. They could have left or died off. As the halls were vacant, he probably has a good claim on them, if not one on Finrod's hoard.

Turin had made two promises to the Dwarf: 1) that no man under him would slay Mim and 2) that he would pay him a "danwedh" in gold for his son. Mim's betrayal was not willing, he did it in order to save the life of his son, who was held hostage by the Orcs. His effort to secure Turin's life shows the measure of Mim's respect towards the Man. After all, Mim hated the Outlaws (who had killed his son and made him a hostage in his own home) but respected Turin. Only Turin could nullify his promise to Mim, which he did not.

We know that Túrin kept at least one part of his promise, that he would spare the lives of Mîm and his son; but we don't know if he paid the promised compensation in gold. Perhaps he had already done so by the time he was captured, hence Mîm asking the Orcs that he not be killed.

We don't know from the information available if Túrin paid this promised compensation to Mîm by the time he died. If he had done so, then the debt was paid. Even if it was not, I don't see Húrin having, in the circumstances, any responsibility for his son's unpaid debts. As far as he was concerned, Mîm betrayed his son to a fate worse than death, something of which he had had personal experience.

Coming to Thingol and the sons of Feanor, I do agree that the behavior of Celegorm and Curufin was the worst they could do. It is quite possible that they told their tale as they wanted to Maedhros, who was not welcome into Doriath, either and thus he could not gather information from Thingol. But, since Thingol kept in his possession something he had no better a legal claim on than Morgoth, the attack was the only solution. And, IMO, if it was Maedhros who led it, and not Celegorm, things would have been better for both sides.

That's where Maedhros and Maglor messed up so badly. Tolkien makes it clear that when Elves married, they did for love, or at least freely. Any idea of trying to marry a fellow Elf against (in this case) her will, was one of the worst things any Elf could do. To this is added the political dimension that Lúthien was the daughter of Thingol, the Lord of Beleriand.

I would have thought that Maedhros and Maglor, who appeared to have been reasonable Elves, should have tried to find out the truth, by asking those in Nargothrond what went on, and then asking their cousin Galadriel to get information from Melian.

Once that was done, those two brothers (and possibly also Amrod and Amras) should have formally apologised to Thingol for the disgusting behaviour of Celegorm and Curufin towards his daughter, and offered to pay compensation, before bringing up the issue of the Silmaril. While they should have mentioned the Oath, it should have been left to the end, they first mentioning that the jewel was their father's property, which had been stolen by Morgoth, and that their claim still stood, regardless of any oath.

I'm not saying that it would have resolved matters; but I thought that Maedhros and Maglor, and possibly also Amrod and Amras, should have first tried this kind of approach. Certainly the lack of an apology concerning what happened to Lúthien was completely wrong.

[King Naugladur]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

King Naugladur, looking again at the three issues:

We don't have enough information about Finrod's responsibility; all we have is a general comment about what was done by the Noldor. The word 'evicted' was never used to describe what had happened to the Petty-dwarves in Nargothrond. All Mîm said was that his people were the first ones who dug there, but he didn't say what had happened to them. They could have left or died off. As the halls were vacant, he probably has a good claim on them, if not one on Finrod's hoard.


We know that Túrin kept at least one part of his promise, that he would spare the lives of Mîm and his son; but we don't know if he paid the promised compensation in gold. Perhaps he had already done so by the time he was captured, hence Mîm asking the Orcs that he not be killed.

We don't know from the information available if Túrin paid this promised compensation to Mîm by the time he died. If he had done so, then the debt was paid. Even if it was not, I don't see Húrin having, in the circumstances, any responsibility for his son's unpaid debts. As far as he was concerned, Mîm betrayed his son to a fate worse than death, something of which he had had personal experience.



That's where Maedhros and Maglor messed up so badly. Tolkien makes it clear that when Elves married, they did for love, or at least freely. Any idea of trying to marry a fellow Elf against (in this case) her will, was one of the worst things any Elf could do. To this is added the political dimension that Lúthien was the daughter of Thingol, the Lord of Beleriand.

I would have thought that Maedhros and Maglor, who appeared to have been reasonable Elves, should have tried to find out the truth, by asking those in Nargothrond what went on, and then asking their cousin Galadriel to get information from Melian.

Once that was done, those two brothers (and possibly also Amrod and Amras) should have formally apologised to Thingol for the disgusting behaviour of Celegorm and Curufin towards his daughter, and offered to pay compensation, before bringing up the issue of the Silmaril. While they should have mentioned the Oath, it should have been left to the end, they first mentioning that the jewel was their father's property, which had been stolen by Morgoth, and that their claim still stood, regardless of any oath.

I'm not saying that it would have resolved matters; but I thought that Maedhros and Maglor, and possibly also Amrod and Amras, should have first tried this kind of approach. Certainly the lack of an apology concerning what happened to Lúthien was completely wrong.

Dearest Faramir Jones,

We seem to agree, at least to a degree, that Mim has a good claim on both Norgothrond and the hoard within, so I will proceed in the other two points.

In my humble opinion, had Turin paid the compensation, it would be mentioned. It is not mentioned if, during the brief success of the Dor-Cuarthol, Turin came in possession of treasure, but I deem it unlikely, since he was far more interested in military opposition to the Orcs of Morgoth and not wealth. On the other hand, Mim's plea for Turin not to be killed can be traced back to the great respect the Dwarf felt for him. It is mentioned that, during his first winter at the Bar-en-Danwedh, Turin listened very much to Mim's lore and the tales of his life. Since all Dwarves are normally keeping such things to themselves, we can surmise that Mim held Turin in very high esteem.

Coming to the behavior of Celegorm and Curufin, I do agree that Maedhros should have acted more responsibly. The lack of an apology was wrong, but this does not eliminate the fact that Thingol could not lay a valid claim on the Silmaril. Both sides committed gross errors, which resulted in the Second Kinslaying.

Waiting for your response,

King Naugladur.

[Faramir Jones]

Yes, King Naugladur, we agree on some things and disagree on others. It appears that while we agree that Mîm has a claim on Nargothrond, we disagree about his claim on the hoard, I claiming that he has none, it being Finrod's or his family's.

In terms of the issue of compensation:

In my humble opinion, had Turin paid the compensation, it would be mentioned. It is not mentioned if, during the brief success of the Dor-Cuarthol, Turin came in possession of treasure, but I deem it unlikely, since he was far more interested in military opposition to the Orcs of Morgoth and not wealth. On the other hand, Mim's plea for Turin not to be killed can be traced back to the great respect the Dwarf felt for him. It is mentioned that, during his first winter at the Bar-en-Danwedh, Turin listened very much to Mim's lore and the tales of his life. Since all Dwarves are normally keeping such things to themselves, we can surmise that Mim held Turin in very high esteem.

You may be right, for the reasons you gave, that Túrin was not in a position to pay the promised compensation to Mîm before he was captured. The dwarf may have asked for Túrin's life to be spared due to having respect for him. However, this has nothing to do with Finrod's hoard, which wasn't Túrin's. Also, while Túrin gave his word to Mîm, Húrin didn't, so was not part of that agreement.

Regarding the sons of Fëanor:

Coming to the behavior of Celegorm and Curufin, I do agree that Maedhros should have acted more responsibly. The lack of an apology was wrong, but this does not eliminate the fact that Thingol could not lay a valid claim on the Silmaril. Both sides committed gross errors, which resulted in the Second Kinslaying.

We agree that Thingol should have handed the Silmaril over, as it wasn't his. Also, the brothers should have acted far more diplomatically towards him regarding that jewel, which might have produced a better result.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

While it's true that the SoF, especially Maedhros, should have acted more diplomatically, it's another matter whether they could. They were under the Doom of Mandos, most especially in any matter concerning the Silmarils and the Oath: "On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East...Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them;" and I think those were drivers of irrational conduct, an independent dark psychological force somewhat reminiscent of the effect of the One Ring.

(It's also likely the case that, although M&M weren't as crude as Caranthir, privately they too thought of Thingol as a "dark Elf in his caves;" the thought of such an inferior possessing a Silmaril was intolerable to them.)

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for you contribution, William, and apologies for not replying sooner.

In terms of what you said:

While it's true that the SoF, especially Maedhros, should have acted more diplomatically, it's another matter whether they could. They were under the Doom of Mandos, most especially in any matter concerning the Silmarils and the Oath: "On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East...Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them;" and I think those were drivers of irrational conduct, an independent dark psychological force somewhat reminiscent of the effect of the One Ring.

(It's also likely the case that, although M&M weren't as crude as Caranthir, privately they too thought of Thingol as a "dark Elf in his caves;" the thought of such an inferior possessing a Silmaril was intolerable to them.)

I think they could have acted more diplomatically; because they, unlike humans who eventually die of old age, have plenty of time to spare. This can be seen when they did not attack Morgoth for centuries, despite the Oath being in force. All seven appeared to then have no problem letting it slumber for a time.

If they were prepared to be patient with their greatest enemy, who killed their father, could they not be at least equally patient with a fellow Elf? Why not at least try to get the Silmaril back by diplomatic means? At least it would give some public justification for any future use of force.

Sadly, you're probably right, in terms of what many of the SoF privately thought about Thingol. But they could have at least been publicly diplomatic towards him, particularly after the scandal of two of them kidnapping his daughter.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, assaulting Angband was impossible, whereas Doriath was do-able. And the SoF did wage constant war on Morgoth after all.