Middle-earth What-ifs

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, it also provided an instant self-destruct tool (although, I can't recall, was that clearly understood at the time?) If I had been Sauron, I think I would have opted against the creation of the Ring and tried to avoid being defeated in the first place.

It's a good point. It seems that Sauron knew the Ring could be destroyed at Mount Doom. Presumably otherwise he wouldn't have panicked so much when Frodo put the Ring on at the Sammath Naur. On the other hand, given that Sauron never imagined his enemies trying to destroy the Ring before that moment, I'd argue that even if he knew "academically" that the Ring could be destroyed in that manner, presumably the idea of it actually being destroyed never crossed his mind.

It reminds me of that existentialist thought experiment: "Technically there's nothing stopping me from jumping off this cliff, but why would I?" Technically the Ring could be destroyed by melting it in the Fires of Doom, but to Sauron I imagine such an idea would be completely absurd, not just for him but for anyone: "Why would anyone destroy the Ring when they could use it?" So presumably, in Sauron's mind, the vulnerability of the Ring was so absurdly unlikely to be a problem that he didn't consider it to be a problem at all.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that this is a good additional counterargument to the idea that Sauron left the Ring behind in Mordor when he went to Númenor (which is kind of implied in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" but refuted by Letter 211). Letter 211 aside, it seems incredibly unlikely to me that Sauron would ever have voluntarily taken the Ring off for any reason ever. I imagine that, essentially, he expected to be wearing it forever.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Second, to pose a silly question, could even the Ring have worked in this manner indefinitely? Say Sauron gets defeated repeatedly but the Ring still exists? Would the power provided by the existence of the Ring allow Sauron to keep coming back until he wins? In thinking about it, my belief is that it wouldn't have. Even in his origins, Sauron was not an infinite being and neither was the Ring an object of infinite power as it was created by a finite being. Given those limitations, I believe eventually one and or both of them could be depleted to the point of final impotence. Not that I think this is a particularly likely scenario, but I'm deliberately posing a hypothetical.

I think you have a point. On the one hand, it isn't clear how the Ring could eventually "run out of power" because it seems like the whole point of it was to operate in a way which didn't involve the expenditure of power. I feel as if the power imbued in it was "transformed", in a sense, which made its existence static. That doesn't mean the power is "infinite" - it could only do a certain amount of "work" within the bounds of the power bound in it and its wielder - but the power it did have was contained indefinitely. I think it makes sense to an extent to think of the Ring as a "machine" (albeit one without moving parts) which gives some kind of mechanical advantage, although the "Ring as amplifier" explanation is a bit problematic in my opinion.

At the same time, so much of Arda is entropic. I can't help but imagine that if Sauron's body continued to be destroyed, for instance, he would have severe trouble rebuilding it eventually, Ring or no Ring, because the Ring probably couldn't be used in that way. Then another might claim the Ring and wield it. Perhaps the Ring might eventually wear down and lose its potency, but I believe that Sauron himself would first.

I suppose that's the thing, though. The Ring was made for a very specific purpose which was never properly fulfilled. In Sauron's perfect world, the original Ringbearers would have fallen under his control, with everything else to follow. Instead that didn't work, he had to fight a war for the other Rings, he lost a body in Númenor, he lost another body against the Last Alliance, and he lost the Ring. If none of that had happened, maybe Sauron and the Ring would have kept each other "alive" for a very, very long time.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

If none of that had happened, maybe Sauron and the Ring would have kept each other "alive" for a very, very long time.

Undoubtedly so, especially since if Sauron had won the War of the Ring his dominion would have been established effectively forever, barring intervention of Eru or the Valar (which I think probably would have happened under the circumstances).

[denethorthefirst]

If Sauron hadn't created the one ring he would not be able to come back in the third age (He was fully incarnated at the time of the war of the last alliance).
If he would have been able to become the dark lord without the one ring is another matter. Some say that the one ring had the very narrow purpose of only dominating the other rings. If you take that view the one ring was essentially a failure and not necessary for Sauron to become the powerful ruler he was in the original timeline.
On the other hand, some speculate that the one ring made it possible for Sauron to somehow control the "Morgoth Element" ... if you take that view the one ring was actually not only successful but the foundation and cornerstone of Saurons rise to power.

If Borormir had claimed the kingship I'm certain that this decision (and the ensuing civil war) would have destroyed gondor. There are a lot of houses more noble (and with connections to the house of Anarion) than the House of Hurin. The decision to let the stewards rule was a compromise between the great houses of gondor to prevent another civil war and it worked so well precisely because the stewards were a relatively lesser house that couldn't hope to claim kingship and was dependent on the other great houses - a house of cards that falls if a steward decides to rock the boat.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

If Sauron hadn't created the one ring he would not be able to come back in the third age (He was fully incarnated at the time of the war of the last alliance).

I don't know that I agree with that. We know that Umaiar have been known to suffer multiple slayings of their material form (not really a hröa, per se, since it isn't part of their innate nature as ëalar to have a physical form, unlike the Mirroanwi, who are meant to be fëa and hröa united), and return later. I admit that the Ring ensured against his 'permanent' destruction by traditional means, while also functioning as his Achilles Heel (similar to a Lich's phylactery or the Horcruxes of the Harry Potter mythos, both of which I assume drew from this source material), but I don't think there's any conclusive evidence that his slaying at the end of the Second Age would have proven the end of his spirit's endurance. It's possible you're right, but what makes you so sure?

Furthermore, without the forging of the Ring and the resultant events of the history of the Second Age, who is to say that the War of the Last Alliance would have occurred as it did in the original timeline? That's like saying that Barack Obama would still have been elected President if the United States had conquered Canada in the War of 1812. I mean, sure, it could still have happened, but it seems likely that subsequent events would have led to a very different modern day, in which Barack Obama might have never been elected, or never run for President, or never gotten into politics, or never even existed to begin with.

Then again, it's also possible a similar alliance would have taken place and Sauron very well could have been defeated in personal combat, as he was. Just remember, that was a desperate move on his part. Sauron didn't like to take the field if he could help it, and Barad-dûr (which was built in part with the power of the One Ring, so does it even exist?) had been under siege for so long he had to change the playing field if he was going to come out on top. He ended up killing the enemy commanders, but at the cost of the destruction of his material frame. But who is to say things would have led to the same eventuality had the Ring not been forged?

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

If he would have been able to become the dark lord without the one ring is another matter. Some say that the one ring had the very narrow purpose of only dominating the other rings. If you take that view the one ring was essentially a failure and not necessary for Sauron to become the powerful ruler he was in the original timeline.
On the other hand, some speculate that the one ring made it possible for Sauron to somehow control the "Morgoth Element" ... if you take that view the one ring was actually not only successful but the foundation and cornerstone of Saurons rise to power.

Tolkien states, as far as I know, that the Morgoth Element is necessary for most feats of true magic, and so I imagine that he already had some proficiency in manipulating it. Furthermore, his native abilities as a Maia permitted him some level of "magic," really just the exercise of his native power, that surpassed anything the Elves could do. That being said, I agree 100% that the One Ring increased his ability to manipulate the Morgoth Element, thus increase his abilities. The extent of his capabilities in the late Second and Third Ages were due, in part, to his being able to access and control much of the Morgoth Element left behind by his master, without giving up any of his own substance to do so. This, in a way, made him more dangerous than Morgoth, since he had access to much of Morgoth's affinity for the manipulation of Arda, without having to diminish himself. Though I imagine that his total potency was still less than Morgoth's was, probably far less.

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

If Borormir had claimed the kingship I'm certain that this decision (and the ensuing civil war) would have destroyed gondor. There are a lot of houses more noble (and with connections to the house of Anarion) than the House of Hurin. The decision to let the stewards rule was a compromise between the great houses of gondor to prevent another civil war and it worked so well precisely because the stewards were a relatively lesser house that couldn't hope to claim kingship and was dependent on the other great houses - a house of cards that falls if a steward decides to rock the boat.

I don't disagree. As I explore the possibilities, there really doesn't seem to be an alternative to that view. Although I don't know that I view "a lot" of the Houses of Gondor as more noble, there were certainly nobler and loftier houses, especially the Princes of Dol Amroth. Still, at least at one point in the mythos, Tolkien believed that the House of Hurin were, in fact, descended from Elendil and Anárion, though not counted among his heirs. This is stated in The Peoples of Middle-earth. I'd be willing to entertain the idea that this was discarded in favor of later developments, but I think it equally likely that there was some degree of descent through a daughter of the royal line, which didn't convey inheritance rights in the royal house of Gondor, as far as we can tell.

But, yes, it would definitely lead to civil war, which would result in the further diminishing of Gondor, at the very least, perhaps in its fractioning into multiple kingdoms, as in Arnor, and eventually to its destruction by enemies from the east or south. Dor-en-Ernil may have survived, becoming a last bastion of the Dunedain in the south, a remnant of the former Kingdom of Gondor, ruled by the Princes.

[Belegorn]

In Morgoth's Ring a passage mentions that "it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [Myths Transformed] This of course was Sauron's purpose in creating the Rings. It is known that it failed to work on the dwarves and even on the Elves since they took them off as soon as they became aware of Sauron. I think they too could be dominated like Men since they did not dare to wear their Rings so long as Sauron possessed the One.

"in his own Black Land, Sauron made the One Ring, the ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them." [Letter of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter # 131

Tolkien mentions that while in Númenor Sauron did become diminished while corrupting it. He was dominating their wills through the Ring itself. I'm not sure about the Ring, if it's like a battery that can be recharged wielding it's former levels of power.

In letter 200 when discussing the shapes the Maiar put on Tolkien says "It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to rebuild, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination)." I think it might be true to some extent that when Sauron was overthrown he had not quite put everything back together, regained his hold on things as they once were. So the two kings probably took out a less than 100% Sauron, still a major feat in any case.

Regarding the remaining Dúnedain after the fall of the Kings, none of them had a one among them who could hope to claim kingship as it is said that the line failed in the South. When the Stewards took up their roles "to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return"[Appendix A: The Stewards] those who had any legit right had either fled with the other Rebels south or had become much diminished in marrying non-Dúnedain women.

"the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife (about 600 year prior); whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful of those near akin. Often those on whom suspicion fell had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Númenórean blood.

So it was that no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-strife, knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish." [Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion]