Did Frodo REALLY volunteer to Bear the Ring?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That's all very interesting, but no, I don't see that it constitutes that "proper case" or "good evidence" that I was talking about.

Again, is all this just meant as your own alternative-reading/head-canon, or are you serious?

What's your position on Frodo's psychological constitution, it's degree of failure by Rivendell, and its capacity to self-reflect honestly, given what he did to Bilbo?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

What's your position on Frodo's psychological constitution, it's degree of failure by Rivendell, and its capacity to self-reflect honestly, given what he did to Bilbo?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

You flatter me, but I believe my own thoughts are largely irrelevant at present and should wait until you've had a chance to present this case and evidence of yours.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You flatter me, but I believe my own thoughts are largely irrelevant at present and should wait until you've had a chance to present this case and evidence of yours.

It's not flattery, Nerwen, it's just wanting a conversation, actually.

I've put a lot of information out already. It's important to wait to let others speak, first, and enjoy having an opinion. It's certainly not all about me, and I'd value your input.

[Nerwen]

Okay, well then: I think the Ring had gained a measure of influence over him by that point; I do not think this means that he intended to betray the others or that he was only acting out of vanity.

That's about all I can say at this stage.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Okay, well then: I think the Ring had gained a measure of influence over him by that point; I do not think this means that he intended to betray the others or that he was only acting out of vanity.

That's about all I can say at this stage.

"Intended" is your point. And, so without intention, there cannot be vanity, or Vanity.

Interesting, thank you for offering

@all

This then opens up the area of conscious versus unconscious mind. I'd be curious to hear what people thought about this, as it's going into psychology. Still, that's okay, because Tolkien was, certainly, a master of understanding about some basic psychological processes, and I believe his experiences of war underscored how he developed the percipience.

who "...lied even unto himself..." - those who do, I'm sure sometimes are not aware that they are. Or - must - not be aware, at least for a term. Wasn't that the point. Even Sauron had the capacity to '...lie even unto himself...' and believe his own bs when pleading for Mercy. For his....Vanity.

I think Frodo's Vanity was very apparent at his footstomping moment in the Council of Elrond.

A second question comes up for me from Nerwen's point:

For those beings whose core underlying being did (not) 'select' the Ring, or claim it in Greed or Vanity of Avarice - how much protection did that afford Frodo? And was that the basic reason that at the Sammath Naur, by 'fate', "Eru" or 'Lady Luck", he used The Ring to Command Sméagol on the upward march to the Sammath Naur, which saved the world. "If you claim the Ring, you will becast yourself into the Sammath Naur". Interesting choice of words, don't you think?

[Galadriel55]

I want to direct your attention to Frodo's thoughts and behaviour beyond this point. Certainly, we see that the Ring has a hold on him. But also, we see Frodo's immense struggle against its power and against the temptation to leave the burden to others. During his trudge with Sam from Anduin, you can see how almost every step is done with the thought of "I must". If you want quotes, there's certainly more than one occasion when he utters either that, or "I ought to" (don't have LOTR with me, so can't give a proper reference, but they're there). Who forced him to go on that weary journey when there were none but his best friend to see? Why did he not just pull a Gollum and hide in some cave with his Precious? Maybe because his motivation was that of duty, an obligation to finish what was started to prevent the destruction of his world, of doing the right thing - and not of keeping the Ring for himself. Frodo wasn't entirely expecting the quest to succeed - especially not automatically. In fact, I believe he even expressed his doubt during the Council, and on several occasions after that. He did not take the Ring because he thought he could complete the quest, but because he saw it as his duty - he saw that none of the others would take it, and if he did not do it then they would bicker until Sauron came knocking, and someone had to take it and try. His intent, as far as we can read from LOTR, is to do the right thing and resist the temptation to do the easy thing. He never thinks he can succeed better than others - he hardly thinks he can succeed at all, and he wishes someone else would do the job so that he can go back home. So when you discuss your theory, please keep in mind those things about Frodo's motives that are stated or seen in the books.

[Pervinca Took]

No, I don't see any vanity at all. Well, not of that kind. He felt an overwhelming desire NOT to go on the quest. He referred to it as a "hopeless journey" to Pippin, quite openly. He saw it as a kind of long-awaited doom that he hoped he might not have to suffer. He wanted the cup to pass, but it didn't, and no-one offered an alternative.

He broke down and wept in despair that his quest would be 'in vain' not long before Shelob's Lair. He must have known, increasingly, that he couldn't destroy the Ring. He was even seriously worried he wouldn't get to Mount Doom in the first place. But the Wise were intent upon sending him to Mount Doom anyway. He wasn't going to defy the wisest people in Middle-earth ... but also, Gandalf had said "I will always help you. I will help you bear this burden, as long as it is yours to bear." So even though Gandalf had not at that point mentioned accompanying him, I think he expected more guidance along the way. Don't forget that he was willing to lean on the guidance of Gandalf and Aragorn, and did not expect to lose them ... it says that partly because of this, he spent as much of his time in Rivendell as possible with Bilbo. The Fellowship members are not finally decided until a week before they set out, but Gandalf has said he thinks he will go.

Regarding going through Moria, Frodo says "I do not wish to go. But neither do I wish to refuse the advice of Gandalf." He had a deep trust in Gandalf, as did Sam. As long as he was around, somehow the impossible seemed possible, perhaps?

My gut feeling has always been that Frodo was completely honest and very sincere. His refusal to destroy the Ring knocked me for six when I was 12, and I remained knocked for six for many years. But eventually I completely accepted - on a gut level, and not just because Tolkien had said so - that asking him to resist the Ring at Mount Doom was asking the impossible.

Obviously for him to destroy it was impossible anyway - we saw that at the hearth at Bag End. But *resist* it - resist claiming it - he did. Until the very last. I disagree with Tolkien's choice of pronoun over this. He says in one letter 'He did not endure to the end.' I believe he *did* endure to the end. It was *at* the end that he couldn't endure/resist any more.

Frodo having ulterior motives - I mean seriously, evil motives in bearing the Ring - can work hilariously in parody, I have found. But nowhere else.