Did Frodo REALLY volunteer to Bear the Ring?

[Mithadan]

Can we all please dial back on the negativity here, please?

The goal here is to encourage participation and discussion. Any aspersions cast upon a member, rather than discussion of the topic. is simply inappropriate.

Thank you.

[Nerwen]

Sure, Mithadan.. I just thought it needed saying. I'm not going to keep on about it.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Hm, I've got to confess I've never been never been too enthusiastic about the assumption that the finger of Eru pushed Gollum over the brink. It's just not necessary IMO - I mean, given all we know of Gollum's character it's natural he'd be so enraptured about regaining the Precious he wouldn't mind his steps and stumble.

Yes- I can't recall anything in that scene that would imply a sudden, direct intervention. Now, in "The Shadow of the Past" Gandalf talks about Frodo being "meant" to have the Ring and theorises that Gollum has "a part to play before the end" (or words to that effect- don't have the book to quote from), which I take to be hints of an underlying divine purpose to it all- but surely of the subtle "moving in mysterious ways" sort, as opposed to the "literally tripping people up" sort. I'm not sure how or why the idea has arisen, actually.

[Pervinca Took]

On the 'meant' thing, I remember Frodo saying in Unfinished Tales:

'But still, you could not make us. You were not even allowed to try.'

Or something very similar.

All the same, Frodo's position is a bit like Frederick's with the Pirate King and Ruth appealing to his 'sense of duty.' Albeit in a much more serious sense.

P.S. Come back, Ivriniel! Your devil's advocacy stirred my sluggish posting fingers. (It helps that talking about Frodo is one of my absolute favourite things to do).

[Firefoot]

Ivriniel, the word you use repeatedly that really stands out to me is "creepy." Frankly, I'm just not following this one. I hope this isn't terribly offensive to suggest, but how much of your early readings of LotR do you think was influenced by the movies? Because I could see how one might get "creepy" from Elijah Wood's Frodo, always falling down with his eyes rolling back in his head. (Honestly, this is one thing I have always thought the movies got terribly wrong, in making Frodo get far too weak and corrupted far too quickly - he's not terribly admirable even in the beginning of the movies, while I think book-Frodo is far more noble and courageous.)

If I'm totally off base here, let me know - are there other particular scenes than with Bilbo in Rivendell that you got the creepy vibe from early on?

THEY ALL KNEW--Frodo was creepi-fying.

I mean, of course the Ring is going to have gotten some hold on Frodo by now - he's had it for 17 years already, plus gone up against the Black Riders. On the whole, though, he's really still doing a pretty excellent job of resisting the Ring's hold on him. I'd say it doesn't truly get bad until he reaches Mordor. I think the real question is, who would have been better to send? I think it's pretty well established that Hobbits exhibit a remarkable resilience to evil/the Ring. The obvious counterpoint to Frodo is Boromir, who doesn't even bear the Ring but becomes corrupted by desire for it in a matter of months.

Seeing as Frodo literally does as well as it was possible to do and gets as far as anyone can get, I hardly think that you can say covetousness for the Ring is his motivation.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

P.S. Come back, Ivriniel! Your devil's advocacy stirred my sluggish posting fingers. (It helps that talking about Frodo is one of my absolute favourite things to do).

Absolutely seconding that. As a hypothesis for the community to consider, discuss and confirm or disprove your subjective reading is engaging and stimulating. Got to admit though that your rhapsodic and associative style of posting can make your arguments hard to follow at times.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Seeing as Frodo literally does as well as it was possible to do and gets as far as anyone can get, I hardly think that you can say covetousness for the Ring is his motivation.

I think what Ivriniel is driving at is a distinction between Frodo's conscious motives, which I have no doubt were noble and honourable, and the Ring working on him on an unconscious level, eroding and subverting him. When Boromir demanded the Ring I'm sure he wouldn't have thought of himself as covetous, he was convinced he was doing what was best for Gondor and the Free Peoples at large. Only after he stumbled and came to his senses he realized the madness that had come over him.

(I absolutely agree, by the way, about Frodolijah being way more creepy than the genuine article.)

One thing I've got to object to, Ivriniel, is your use of the word "foot-stomping" in describing the moment at the Council of Elrond when Frodo volunteers to take the Ring (at least I suppose that's what you're referring to); I can see nothing at all in the text that would warrant this. Rather, Frodo seems like a mouthpiece for "some other will" there - and this could be the Ring's, but it also makes me think of Sam with his tongue being loosed and praying to Elbereth "in a language which he did not know" (LotR Book IV, The Choices of Master Samwise).

[Leaf]

While I don't believe that Frodo had any bad intentions when he committed himself to be the ring-bearer, I find the circumstances of his decision rather interesting. We do get a hint that his choice wasn't a rational decision based on a conscious mental process in which he came to the conclusion that (e.g.) it was his duty to take the ring, or something alike.

'At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.'


It is entirely reasonable to associate this will to the influence of the Ring. At least we should recognize that refusing the task (or not volunteering to take part in it) would mean that Frodo had to part with the Ring. It is debatable how strongly the ring hold Frodo in his grip at this point, but the passage in Rivendell in which he shows the Ring to Bilbo indicates that it did already influence him a great deal. The influence of the Ring is already able to change Frodos (visual) perception of other people. In this case Bilbo turns into a spiteful little creature in Frodos mind (on the contrary to the Movies in which Bilbo really shows his inner Gollum, so to speak ) because Bilbo tried to take the Ring away from him.

[Zigûr]

I've always read this moment as nothing more complex than the "voice of duty" as it were - the part of Frodo, perhaps hidden to his conscious mind, which knew what he had to do even though he deeply did not wish to do it. Who would willingly take on such a terrible burden? Yet he knew deep down that he was the person who ought to do it.

I personally don't find it necessary to seek a supernatural explanation here. I feel like if I read such a thing in another work of literature I would take it for granted, and I take it for granted here as well. Magic rings or not, Professor Tolkien captures that moment in human experience when a person knows they must do something which is completely contrary to their own desires and wishes because it is the right thing to do.

That's how I see it.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Ivriniel, the word you use repeatedly that really stands out to me is "creepy." Frankly, I'm just not following this one. I hope this isn't terribly offensive to suggest, but how much of your early readings of LotR do you think was influenced by the movies? Because I could see how one might get "creepy" from Elijah Wood's Frodo, always falling down with his eyes rolling back in his head. (Honestly, this is one thing I have always thought the movies got terribly wrong, in making Frodo get far too weak and corrupted far too quickly - he's not terribly admirable even in the beginning of the movies, while I think book-Frodo is far more noble and courageous.)

If I'm totally off base here, let me know - are there other particular scenes than with Bilbo in Rivendell that you got the creepy vibe from early on?

I mean, of course the Ring is going to have gotten some hold on Frodo by now - he's had it for 17 years already, plus gone up against the Black Riders. On the whole, though, he's really still doing a pretty excellent job of resisting the Ring's hold on him. I'd say it doesn't truly get bad until he reaches Mordor. I think the real question is, who would have been better to send? I think it's pretty well established that Hobbits exhibit a remarkable resilience to evil/the Ring. The obvious counterpoint to Frodo is Boromir, who doesn't even bear the Ring but becomes corrupted by desire for it in a matter of months.

Seeing as Frodo literally does as well as it was possible to do and gets as far as anyone can get, I hardly think that you can say covetousness for the Ring is his motivation.

Hi Firefoot, not it's not offensive, but it's getting there. I appreciate the rest of the post was pitched with some sensitivity.

I first read LotR in 1981, which was the first of over 25 reads. I think I found the Silmarillion a year or two later, which was a tortuous read the first time, but the second and subsequent eight or so reads, have always proven deeply moving. There's always some point at which I usually weep, having focussed on the wonder of another tale. I've read Unfinished Tales, and have the other Tomes, which I try not too hard to immerse myself in. UT is as divergent from the main mythology as I care to wander.

I think most recently, it was really absorbing that Eol forged Beleg from a meteorite, and then discovering, after a good decade in between, how much more empathy I have for Eol (he was -- creepily -- thrown off the cliffs nigh to Turgon's Gondolin, as in a form of vengeance-justice that I had not really absorbed before about the Noldor. I discovered that they were quite -- creepy -- as a race, quite barbaric, in ways.

I do love the Noldor though. A little off colour though they are. After all, Galadriel's voice was "...deeper than a woman's wOnt...." I seem to remember, which conjured.....

images of drag shows - fun as those are - and her possessive, weirdo husband 'Celeborn' who truly throws back to Elwe (who really was a very difficult inlaw, and after all, asking Beren to lose a hand and get a Silmaril as -- dowry -- is further more and more of the same). The Elves, though I still adore them, really had a shadow side, that I submerged in the narrative.

On the other had - Orcs - I've grown more forgiving of. Although, I'm certainly glad I'll never be present at an Orc Shin Dig, where, no doubt, I'd be the main course (although, perhaps a bit stringy at my age, and not tender enough for them. 49, I am, Firefoot).

So - I do - vary my language - away from "Tolkien North" (True North) in enjoyable variations.

So, for example, I'm sure if we washed one of the more sensible, good looking, muscular Orcs, and could manage to keep its breath fresh and manners, somewhat civilised, perhaps I might even consider a mixed-racial marriage.

Enjoy.

I did write the post, after after seeing such retina-burning comments from some of the posters.

[Ivriniel]

for example

http://mavrosh.deviantart.com/art/Orcish-Hunk-387062030

[Faramir Jones]

That was an interesting illustration you linked us to, Ivriniel. My question is this: Is he a solo singer or someone in a particular group or band? It makes sense that the Fellowship didn't see (or make note of seeing) such things, they worrying about fighting to survive.

I thought about Bilbo fighting the giant spiders in The Hobbit. They aren't referred to by gender at all, which makes sense; because Bilbo was trying to fight to survive and rescue his friends, not having the time to spare to wonder if they were boy or girl spiders.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

The goal here is to encourage participation and discussion. Any aspersions cast upon a member, rather than discussion of the topic. is simply inappropriate.

My intent was not to cast aspersions on anyone, though I and others have purposely, and I think justly, cast aspersions on Ivrinel’s reasoning, or possibly lack thereof.

My intent was to withdraw from the discussion, not to indicate that Ivriniel was a troll or wasn’t. I think your statement, “Any aspersions cast upon a member, rather than discussion of the topic. is simply inappropriate.” If this was your understanding of my statement, “Is Ivriniel merely a poor arguer, or is Ivriniel a troll?”, then I apologize for posting something that could be so easily misunderstood without giving me the benefit of the doubt. Assume incompetence on my part, not malice.

Note that my final statement was, “It doesn’t matter to me as I am going to cease to feed Ivriniel.” The implied reference to the common internet advice, “DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!” was intentional but, with hindsight, unfortunate.

Perhaps I should have posted instead, “It doesn’t matter to me because enough has been posted by others than myself all of which I agree with that I do not regret leaving.”

So, unexpectedly, I find myself back here again, I think, for the last time.