Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

(...) I also think it suits Gil-galad's character quite nicely that he derived from the House of Finarfin, given that he mistrusted Sauron and so forth. Lindon being ruled by the great-grandson of Finarfin while Eregion is ruled by the grandson of Fëanor sets up an interesting dynamic, I think.

I agree. For me one of the problems with Gil-galad the Finarfinian is the matter of Nargothrond, Finduilas and Turin. I'm not saying the problems could not have been solved, but adding Gil-galad here does create a "need" in my opinion, to settle a few matters.

There's a thread about this, not here but here...

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtop...?f=27&t=104639

[Galin]

As I understand the work currently to exist, a true, full, and detailed history of Galadriel and her family can't really be compiled without editorial decisions made by an editor.

If trying to incorporate posthumously published materials, as I did, I had to make a lot of decisions based upon my own ideas about canon, my number one rule there being: author published material takes prime standing and trumps conflicting material. This consideration, while nicely weeding out some late material, is not going to smooth out all the bumps or answer all the questions however.

I found that my own Galadriel and Celeborn timeline is generally noted here in a thread at Barrow Downs, but interestingly, now I don't agree with all of it! One reason is that my mind is changing about the introduction of the mallorn trees, and I'm starting to question the whole later concept.

Heresy I know

I'm actually starting to prefer what I think was Tolkien's original idea: the mallorn trees grew "magically" and naturally in Lorien with the exception of the one in the Shire (later). Granted it's a bit misty, but specifically giving Galadriel the "power" (as Tolkien appears to later) to grow them in Middle-earth raises questions about why she did not, or could not, grow them anywhere else (in the long years before Amroth's death) West of the Misty Mountains.

I mean, in tandem with the fact that Lorien was not her realm to look after until well into the Third Age, after Amroth's passing.

Anyway, that's just one example of my madness

[Mithalwen]

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad. In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting. Though placing him in the line of Fingolfin has some attractions, Finrod seems much more fitting in character and behaviour let alone fate. But then there is the poignancy of Finrod leaving his beloved....

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad.

I agree. Perhaps it could be rationalized that the awesomesauce skipped a generation in this case or that Gil-galad learned from his father's mistakes.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, as CT said, none of the later genealogy ever made its way into narrative, which he was loath to rewrite too much except in extremis. We are left with the bizarre circumstance that the whole time Turin was living in Nargothrond as Orodreth's No 2 and Finduilas' object of affection- yet the king's son Gil-Galad isn't there? And mind you, this state of affairs was written in the Narn material during the later 1950s, it's not ancient QN stuff.

Nor can we use the dodge that Gil-Galad was "sent away to Balar," really; why on earth would that have been the case when Nargothrond was (so they thought) at the height of its power and impregnability?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(...) Nor can we use the dodge that Gil-Galad was "sent away to Balar," really; why on earth would that have been the case when Nargothrond was (so they thought) at the height of its power and impregnability?

As I know you know, in alterations made to QS, where Gil-galad is Felagund's son, Felagund, fearing that all strong places were doomed to fall, sends away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and their child ('yet an Elvenchild') Gil-galad.

And another note: 'But forseeing evil he [Felagund] demanded Orodreth to send away his son Gil-galad, and wife.' This was struck out, but yet a third note states that the wife of Felagund '... forsook the folk of Nargothrond and went with her son Gilgalad to the Havens of the Falas.' And this forsaking of Nargothrond seemingly takes place when Orodreth expells Celegorn and Curufin from Nargothrond.

The note in which Fingon becomes King of the Noldor and sends his son Gil-galad to the Havens [compared to the 1977 Silmarillion, the line reads: ['… Fingon took the lordship of the house of Fingolfin and the kingdom of the Noldor. [Late penciled addition: But his young son (?Findor) [sic] Gilgalad he sent to the Havens]' War of the Jewels. p. 56] is present on the GA typescript, itself dating to 1958.

So the external progression seems to be:

A) Felagund sends his wife and son to the Havens for safety -- A1) or demands that Orodreth do so -- A2) or Felagund's wife forsakes Nargothrond with Gil-galad

B) Then later the idea re-emerges that Gil-galad was sent to the havens, by his father Fingon.

C) Then later again Gil-galad is back as a Finarfinian, but now 'escapes'... I assume escapes the fall of Nargothrond.

C is based on:

Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains). His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad). Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Noldor there.

JRRT, August 1965, reproduced in The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

[Formendacil]

It's uncanonical as Mary Sue, but I always liked the idea that Gil-galad was the son of Fingolfin's son Argon (Arakano)--mentioned only in the Shibboleth texts and said to have died just after the crossing of the Helcaraxe. The reason it worked for me is that it allowed the basic outline of the published Silmarillion to remain intact, an outline I have a nostalgia for simply because I encountered it young.

In such a case, Gil-galad is still associated with the House of Fingolfin. It makes sense that the son of Argon would remain with the Elves of Hithlum, but it also makes sense why he'd be skipped over in the succession by Turgon--like others, I found that the hardest point to swallow in the published Silm narrative: the passing over of the House of Fëanor is presented as an aberration, so why isn't the passing over of the House of Fingon treated likewise?

I might also like it for the meta-narrative reason that it keeps Gil-galad's genealogy "obscure"--it's not quite the "left unsaid" that Christopher Tolkien ended up wishing he'd followed, but as Argon sits on both the edge of obscurity and the edge of canonicity, it leaves Gil-galad's parentage sufficiently forgettable that it makes sense to me that his father could be forgotten in the published tales, leaving later, mannish, scholars to speculate if he was the son of Fingon or the son of a Finarfinian.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't find the Orodreth option satisfactory. I appreciate that this is really an instinctive / emotional response in me that Orodreth just seems so, well, feeble to have sired Gil-galad. In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting. Though placing him in the line of Fingolfin has some attractions, Finrod seems much more fitting in character and behaviour let alone fate. But then there is the poignancy of Finrod leaving his beloved....

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I agree. Perhaps it could be rationalized that the awesomesauce skipped a generation in this case or that Gil-galad learned from his father's mistakes.

Sons need not take after their fathers, in temperament or accomplishments. And honestly, if Gil-galad were not raised around his father, it would seem all the more likely he would share fewer behavioral characteristics than otherwise (though again, not a hard and fast rule). And as for awesomesauce skipping a generation, take a look at the descendants of the Ship-Kings: Atanatar, basically a loser who rode his predecessors coat-tails, followed by two kings who let their nephew/son rule for them. Romendacil II was the first king worth his salt after his great-grandfather, Hyarmendacil I.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

Sons need not take after their fathers, in temperament or accomplishments.

True but more so in real life than in Tolkien's world where genetics don't seem to work the same way and so many powers, qualities and kudos are inherited.

And how can I phrase this, Orodreth seems too feeble to have sired anyone...

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

True but more so in real life than in Tolkien's world where genetics don't seem to work the same way and so many powers, qualities and kudos are inherited.

And how can I phrase this, Orodreth seems too feeble to have sired anyone...

Right, and I understand that viewpoint, but we have just as many examples of sons either not living up to, or greatly surpassing, their fathers in Tolkien's works that I don't think we could make such a blanket statement.

I mean, I know it's your opinion and so it's not really up for argument, per se. And I'm not really trying to convince you, more just stating my differing opinion, in general.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

(...) In addition, while I realise he might have been a child at the time but it makes Finduilas' comment to Turin rather insulting.

Hmm, but that line, I think, would have been altered or lifted out, if Tolkien had fully written the new idea in.

Stripping Finduilas of part of her line to Turin does not seem that invasive (not that you said it was), and this does not occur in QS itself if I recall correctly. I assume you are referring to: 'But you are kingly,' said she, 'even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant.' from The Children of Hurin.