* An unofficial New Silmarillion Outline *

[Arvegil145]

I am also currently revising the Second and Third Age material, and like I said, I will propose an outline for it as soon as I may (detailed, mind you).


P.S. One more question (two actually): what about Elentir and Míriel's infatuation with Pharazôn? Are they "canon"?

The second question: if the "Númenórean chapters" from "The Lost Road" are to be kept, what should we do with Herendil - in my opinion, the easiest solution is to simply replace him with Isildur (or Anárion - but I see no point in that, since Anárion is not really featured that much in the rest of the writings).

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

The second question: if the "Númenórean chapters" from "The Lost Road" are to be kept, what should we do with Herendil - in my opinion, the easiest solution is to simply replace him with Isildur (or Anárion - but I see no point in that, since Anárion is not really featured that much in the rest of the writings).

Actually, the more do I look into it, the more I feel reluctant to include those chapters into the work.

1) Isildur was born in SA 3209 - and according to "Aldarion and Erendis" Aldarion was at the age of 25 fully come to manhood. Yet in the Lost Road Herendil (or Isildur if we replace him) is yet called a boy at almost 50 years of age. This cannot stand in the context of the later mythology.

2) At the time the narrative takes place, Sauron is already in Númenor, and Ar-Pharazôn is preparing his fleet (which according to the later story took place only after SA 3310) - again we have the problem of chronology. Herendil (Isildur) is said to have been but a child when Sauron came - (in SA 3261/2 according to the later outline) - yet Isildur would have been a full grown man at that time.

....
I could go on and on, but these are just some of the things that stand out to me as very problematic.

[Arvegil145]

OK - I finally finished the Númenórean stuff, and I will now propose an outline for it. Yet I still have to think more about the Middle-earth of the Second and Third Age.

Translations from the Elvish
Volume 2: Númenor and the History of the North-west of Middle-earth

Akallabêth
. The Downfall of Númenor
...A Description of the Island of Númenor
...Indis i-Ciryamo: The Mariner's Wife

(interlude)

. The Downfall of Númenor (continuation)
...The Line of Elros: The Kings of Númenor
...(Of) Aman and Mortal Men

Perhaps it may look a bit confused, but here is what I have in mind:

1) start the chapter with "A Description of the Island of Númenor" (in which I have included the opening parts of the "Akallabêth" as found in QS77)

2) include the story of "Aldarion and Erendis" immediately following the description of Númenor

3) continuation of the "Akallabêth" (proper) until its end

4) include "The Line of Elros" after the end of the "Akallabêth" (proper)

5) include the essay "Aman and Mortal Men" as a kind of an epilogue

...

Considering "Tal-Elmar" I have decided not to include it on the basis of the fact that it breaks the narrative apart in a way that I cannot handle. If we are going to include it, it will have to go in some kind of an appendix, or (as I deem best) in the rest of the material on the Second and Third Age of Middle-earth.

Also, as in my previous post, I have some major reservations about including the "Númenórean chapters" from "The Lost Road", and I have decided not to include them too - they will need a further check after (if we ever) get to the post-First Age stuff.

[Findegil]

The sequence in which you aranged the source text seems more or less okay to me, so I would put The Line of Elros earlier. And I would change the structure in which to present them:

TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH
Volume 2: NÚMENOR AND THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH

Akallabêth
.A Description of the Island of Númenor
.The Line of Elros: The Kings of Númenor
.Indis i-Ciryamo: The Mariner's Wife
.The Downfall of Númenor

...

To include part of the introdcution of The downfall of Númenor in A description of the Island of Númenor seem better then the other way around. I agree that Tal-Elmar is a Middle-earth tale rather the a Númenorian one. So if it can be include it is in the Middle-earth part, if really the parts will be seperated in that way. Alternativly Indis i-Ciryamo could be followed by the parts of Galadriel and Celeborn including the story of the fall of Eregion. Of course in that case the title Akallabêth has to be removed to the last part of The Downfall of Númenor.

I never saw the Númenoren chapters of The Lost Road as chapters of thier own in our work, but parts of them might be integrated into The Downfall of Númenor.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

About the inclusion of the Lost Road chapters: I agree that the chronology has to be changed, but probably we should look to a younger genration. The scene discribed in which the father see the need to speak to his son is the approaching war and the fear of father that the son might be called to the weapon taking.
Therefore the talk must be palced between 3310 when Ar-Pharazôn began the building of the Great Armament and 3319 when he set forth to conquere Valinor.
The only one approaching full manhoud at this time in the line of the Lords of Andunie is Islidurs eldest son, Elendur (and even he barely).

If we take Elendur replacing Herendil, we can chose if he speaks to his father Isildur or to his Grandfather Elendil, but the time of the conversation must be as late as possible not earlier then 3317 when Elendur is 18 years old.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Hello! and sorry for the long delay.

I was actually considering replacing Herendil with Elendur before, and it would also add some nice info about Elendur - the most like in mind and body to his grandfather Elendil.

Speaking of Elendil, I think that we should change the original text as little as possible. So I am in favor of keeping Elendil. But the problem is, as I see it and as you have mentioned already, that the narrative of the Númenórean chapters of The Lost Road relies heavily on the father-son relationship - so keeping that in mind, maybe it would be better to replace Elendil with Isildur, but I'll have to think about it a bit more.

But to me, the greatest problem is the replacement of Herendil with Isildur/Elendur/(some other suggestion?) itself. I think this is a case similar to that of keeping Meril as the mother of Gil-galad, but this time with Orodreth as his father. I think it is getting too near to the fan-fiction territory.

Now...to get a little off-topic - all of that being said, I still think that Meril as the wife of Orodreth should not be discarded so lightly - if I remember correctly, you DID keep Meril, although you did not name her - her background is still there as a Sinda from Eglarest. Would it be too problematic to name her?

[Arvegil145]

One thing (among many others) that kept me delayed for so long is the fact that I have some doubts considering the entire project. First off, the matter of the Myths Transformed and the round world version of The Silmarillion. I know, probably more than most, that there are many problems with making such a revision to Tolkien's works. But still, I think it is worth a try, and if we are to succeed in such an attempt, though hard that attempt be, we would have the ultimate (or as ultimate as it could possible be) "Tolkien Parish".

Second problem I found (as you no doubt have seen already) is the Ælfwine/Eriol vs. Bilbo transmission of the legends of the Elder Days and of the Second and Third Age (including The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings). Seeing that Tolkien had obviously kept both Bilbo and Ælfwine I'm not so sure if Ælfwine should be discarded that lightly.

Now for a bit of fan-fiction - if Bilbo and Frodo (and later Sam) went to Eressëa it wouldn't be so hard a stretch to imagine that Ælfwine learned the stories of Bilbo, Frodo and Sam during his stay on the Island. But as I said before, this is only a concoction.



P.S. Concerning the Númenórean transmission of the legends I have some major problems with the entire concept. One of them is so hard to believe that I find it altogether hilarious - if the Númenóreans were the greatest mariners the world has ever seen, how then could they not know that the world is round?!

Another point that strikes almost as deep as the previous one is the Númenórean lore concerning other things than sea-faring - the Númenóreans were the most advanced human civilization that ever was. How then could they make such erroneous statements of the kind that the Sun and the Moon were made from the Two Trees of Valinor, etc., etc.

But all of this, of course, relies on the fact that the Elves knew the TRUE nature of the world, and that the Númenóreans and other kinds of Men made garbled tales about the origin and nature of the said world.

I simply cannot accept the Númenórean origin of the tales of the Elder Days and beyond them - I think that the Elven origin of those tales is, to me at least, the best mode of their transmission - not to mention the believability of them, and a much better ability to truly immerse oneself into the stories themselves.

Although I am aware that these tales (of the Elder Days) are just "tales" and that the world of Middle-earth is an imaginary world, I'm still inclined to regard them as "true" tales in the context of the world in which they take place - also, I am loath to consider such a great amount of history of Middle-earth as a myth inside a myth.