DoV/RotS: the outline and editing discussions

[Findegil]

Laws and custom joined with The Converse of Manwë and Eru were in my 'plan' part of volume 3: THE LORE OF THE WISE.

As for farther additions from The Shibboleth of Fëanor: They are in part contradicting the Story line of The Later Silmarillion. Since I think (please cross check) that SF is the later source, we might have to change big parts of this chapter again.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

"Shibboleth" is certainly later. From around 1968. Problem is (perhaps not that much of a problem, if we manage to find a convincing solution) that the "Shibboleth" has the greater 144 solar years = 1 Valian year. So if Fëanor was born in YT 1169 and Míriel died in YT 1170, by that greater number, Fëanor could have still grown to an adult by the time of Míriel's death.

Of course, one could argue that if are going to take the lower number (9.58 solar years = 1 Valian year), Fëanor COULD (theoretically) have grown to an "adult", so to speak - c. 20 of our years is the greatest figure for Fëanor's age at the time of Míriel's death. However, it is said that the Elves do not reach their full physical stature until the age of 50, and are not fully mature until 100 years of age. Again, Fëanor could be an exception to the rule - he is, after all, called the "Spirit of Fire" by his mother, and it doesn't seem so unlikely (at least to me) that he could have achieved his full stature (at least physically) by this time.

Then again, you could also argue that by "fully grown" he was fully grown MENTALLY.

OR you could just abandon the notion of Elven children maturing more slowly than mortal children (physically).

In any case, there are many possible "solutions", and I think that the information given in the "Shibboleth" contains some vital character motivations behind Fëanor's later actions - especially his mother's use of "th" as opposed to the later general change to "s" - after all, the essay IS called the "Shibboleth of Fëanor".

[Findegil]

The change in the calculations of times is a more general point. We should probably discuss that in a thread of it own. In our text we can avoid being specific with any numbers of years or other units.

Since DoV realy is the first chapter that the project worked on conclusivly, a re-check for other possible additions especially from younger sources (as SF) is for sure needed. But for the time being I think the group has opened enough indeepth discussions. The detailed discussion of the possible merger of texts including [b]SF[7b] has to wait.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Ok, I have read throught the proposed changes by Findegil and Maedhros, and I have some comments.

Of Finwe and Miriel

I have only two comments for this section. Firstly, I at first wondered why the (far more substantial) Statute of Finwe and Miriel text was not used throughout to greatly expand this section, but I noticed that the very same text is referenced in the chapter itself. This made me think that these additions were not added bc the Statute is to be included along with Laws and Customs in VOLUME III: THE LORE OF THE WISE. If this is so, then I wholeheartedly agree. If, however, this is not to be included later, then I see no reason not to give the much fuller accounts here.

Secondly, In DoV-FM-03 I was confused as to the reason for the inclusion of this portion of the Statute. As there were no other inclusions, this seemed odd as the singular exception, and indeed turns the footnote into a full page of text. In addition, there was no direction by Tolkien to include this account here, so I am confused as to why it was done.

Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

in the paragraph of DoV-UM-03 there was a change to LQ that was left out of your version:

He looked then upon the bliss and glory of the Valar, and malice was in his heart; he looked upon the fair Children of Ilúvatar that sat at the feet of the {gods}[Mighty], and hatred filled him;

More was also changed here, and I added a phrase from AAm:

DoV-UM-04 {wrought and now would work no more. His prayer Niënna aided, but Mandos was silent.}<LQ done to the world. His prayer Niënna aided, but the others were silent. DoV-UM-04.2 < AAm and Ulmo’s heart misgave him.>>

Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

I made an addition from AAm:

Three jewels he made, and named them the Silmarils. {A living fire burned within them that} DoV-UM-04.3 < AAm But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished when the Sun was young and sitteth now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until Sun passeth and Moon falls shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence within the walls of this world could mar or break it. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Ilúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils> was blended of the Light of the Two Trees.

Another addition:

Therefore, whenever he saw his chances, he began to sow a seed of falsehood and hints of evil among all who were open to his converse. But he did this with cunning, so that few who heard these lies ever took them from his own lips: DoV-UM-04.4 <AAm but he that sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed, while others reap and sow in his stead>[; and so] they passed from friend to friend,....

DoV-UN-02: I would change "Feanorians" to "People of Feanor"

Of the Darkening of Valinor

I just have a question. Is it Ungoliante or Ungoliant?

Also, in the LQ version, Ungoliant and Melkor split up, but in all others they remain together and kill the trees as a unit. is LQ the way to go?

Minor note:

§58 Now it was a time of festival, as Melkor knew well. In Aman all tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar, and there was no winter of death; but even as it was the delight of the Valar to clothe themselves in the forms of the Children of Ilúvatar, {[Footnote: As is told in the ‘Ainulindalë'.]} so also they would eat and drink and gather the fruits of Yavanna, and share the bounty of the Earth which under Eru they had made.

I would remove the footnote here, as I believe that was actually mentioned in the Of the Beginning of Time chapter in our version.

DoV-DV-03: at the end of this paragraph is the bit:

At places mighty trees grew on either side, or at places the road would open to a glade and fountains spring {by magic} high into the air for the refreshment of all who sped that way.

The italicized bit should be removed.

DoV-DV-05: This bit is odd, but it might be better to simply remove it. Feanor is the only one of the Noldor who would require the clemency of Manwe, and his presence is told later.

Of the Rape of the Silmarils

DoV-RS-04: The words "in Aman" should be added, as it is elsewhere said that the Elves had been killed in the hither lands, which is why Orome brought them weapons.

Of the Thieves' Quarrel

Looks good!

That was everything I saw, the rest looks good.

[ArcusCalion]

just putting in a reminder here that the Shibboleth additions about Sarmo must be removed, due to their inclusion in chapter 6.

In addition, the addition of the draining of Kullulin and Silindrin in the Darkening of Valinor section.

[Findegil]

And we have to remove Celeborn from the addition that descrips Galadriels stay in Aqualondë.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Where was this addition made? I saw no post about it on this thread.