Curse of Túrin

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Hello, all my fellow corpses!

To begin, Narn i-Chîn Húrin is my favorite story that Tolkien wrote.

To begin again, I think that Morgoth had no power over Húrin, Túrin, Morwen or Niënor. I think that all their woe stems from their pride - only Ilúvatar had any power over his Children - Elves and Men - their origin comes from Eru Himself - and none other than Eru can change or alter their fate.

I am an atheist myself, but Tolkien's conception of the differences between Elves and Men - their differences in their fates - have fascinated me from the time I can remember myself springing to this world.

HOWEVER - I think that Glaurung WAS MORGOTH HIMSELF - in other words, Morgoth dispersed himself, as in the matter of Arda, to Glaurung himself - and in his irrational malice he used his "avatar" Glaurung, so to speak, to get revenge on Húrin and his offspring.


Now, I know that Tolkien had some qualms about Túrin killing Morgoth FOR REAL, but I think it would have been none other than Túrin Turambar, Conqueror of Fate himself, to strike Morgoth with a final blow, with his BLACK sword Gurthang, Iron of DEATH, into the BLACK heart of Morgoth, thus vanquishing Morgoth, the black foe of Arda, forever - avenging both his kin and ALL the children of Men - thus also bringing to naught Morgoth's curse over his kin.



Now, what are your thoughts on Túrin? Not on the character of Túrin himself, but on his place in the great history of Eä?

To my mind, Túrin represents the best and the worst of the humanity - and I think it would be fitting to have Túrin destroy the Evil of humanity once and for all - it would bring a new era of humanity in which Túrin (representation of ALL humanity in one person) would become Tuor or Eärendil (representation of humanity as it SHOULD have been).

So...having nothing other to say I would fain like my fellow Downers to put their thoughts on this matter - if I were not overbearing in my post.


With all respect - Arvegil145 (although I want to change my PURPOSELESS name)!

That was a fun read. Thank you for the post. My father was an atheist, although he loved nature so very clearly and saw such wonder in living things, it was his variation on spirituality and is comforting to recall.

I do like what you wrote about pride and how that attracted so much trouble for the lotta them.

I have always very much avoided the Tale of the House of Hurin, and struggled with it each time I read it. It's so preternaturally dark and it strides from perversion to perversion--with the sibling incest finish line. Then a hurling off of a cliff of woman. A haunting of the house by Morgoth, in a particularly virulent form of stalking of a whole house!

There were some highlights as well.

Were it but for the Second Prophesy of Mandos, I'd have felt 'Frodo-ised' by 'bearing the Burden of the Story' such that "please somebody - is there one boat left going to Valinor. This hitch hiker would rather poke pins in his eyes than read one more blackening of House Hurin! HELP!!!".

Yes - help came. Have you crossed paths with the redemption script in the Second Prophesy of Mandos, and would you like me to rant/babble about it a little?

Kind Regards

[Arvegil145]

Damn, this is an old thread!


Anyway...while I largely cringe upon my earlier posts here, after numerous re-reads of everything Tolkien in the meantime, I still stand by my initial thesis.


I don't see how it is even possible for Morgoth to curse Turin in the sense that most fandom assumes (i.e. Morgoth having some metaphysical power over the lives of Men - as in all but ensuring the outcome of a single person's life, which would go completely against Tolkien's metaphysics, both in real-life and in the legendarium).


Which forces me to conclude that the so-called 'curse' was actually a perfect storm of innate character (both Turin's and Morgoth's) + Morgoth's unimaginably childish pettiness, and obsession with Hurin's family + most importantly, Turin's own belief in the curse, showcasing a complete lack of estel...



I'd like to start with the conversation of Hurin and Morgoth:

"This last then I will say to you, thrall Morgoth," said Húrin, "and it comes not from the lore of the Eldar, but is put into my heart in this hour. You are not the Lord of Men, and shall not be, though all Arda and Menel fall in your dominion. Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

It is evident to me that Eru reached out to Hurin in that moment, and that Morgoth clearly has no authority to decide the ultimate fate of Men. Sure, he can torment them, he can delay that (as Sauron did with the Nazgul), but he can't change that which Iluvatar made them.


Hurin knows this, or at least it was revealed to him in that moment.



My argument is that the so-called 'curse' really is a 'perfect storm' of several things:

1) Morgoth's unimaginably petty fixation on the immediate family of the one who scorned him (Hurin)

EDIT: In fact, I'd say that this fixation actually provided Gondolin with a few indispensable decades - and allowed Tuor (nephew of the 'cursed' Hurin!) to go under the radar and eventually reach Gondolin, and marry Idril, and the rest is history: and, of course, a scion of the House of Hador, Earendil, ultimately brought doom and destruction on Morgoth.

2) Turin's worst characteristics - pride and rashness

3) Turin's best characteristics - pity and empathy

4) Turin's absolute worst characteristic - his own belief in the curse!



I don't see this brought up all that often - but I'm 100% sure that it was Turin's belief in the very existence of the 'curse' that was the catalyst for all his terrible flaws to manifest themselves.

But Turin also had beautiful virtues - but if you combine the above and present + Morgoth's petty fixation on him + unknowable circumstances = Turin's story in the end.


With all that said, I'd like to focus on 4) - because it is the crux of the issue IMO...


Turin's belief that Morgoth could ever possibly alter his future so much that it was effectively 'fate' (in a metaphysical sense), was, I think, an utter failure of estel on Turin's part: and through that lack, ironically, his so-called 'fate' was sealed.

[Arvegil145]

Turin's 'curse', as Gwindor pointed out 'with eyes of death' (to quote Huor, since I think it is applicable) didn't exist as such, nor was Turin's future set in stone. Turin's future was still malleable.


It was Turin's blindness to all these 'escape hatches' that sealed his doom.

And Morgoth never in his history spent so much time and effort just so he can destroy one family in particular.

That is why I think Tolkien imagined Turin coming back "from the Doom of Men" at the end of Time - not because Turin was the one who suffered the most (he didn't), but:

1) because Turin's character is humanity writ small - all of its best and worst characteristics

2) because no character in Tolkien's works (other than his father Hurin, and Nienor Turin's sister) was as personally screwed over by Morgoth

3) he was one of the greatest (if not the greatest) warriors of Men - who would you have as your champion against Morgoth himself if not Turin?

4) Turin's grave was still intact after all the continent-sinking disasters of the First Age



Turin and his black blade ("Iron of Death") will come back to haunt the most singular example of sadistic, idiotic pettiness in the world's history (I hope!)...

Even if those stories originated from the very fallible mouths of Men - this is the end that I prefer, and that, I think, those same "fallible Men" were more correct on Arda's future than even the Valar.



But then again, this is practically fan-fiction.

[Mithadan]

I do not believe that Turin's "curse" was a curse in the classic sense, meaning that Morgoth simply created an enchantment that followed Turin and his kin, causing bad things to happen resulting from the words he uttered themselves. I think that it was, instead, the result of specific attention and will being exerted by Morgoth. To quote some posts I made a little while back:

Until the publication last year of The Nature of Middle Earth (NoME), a significant essay by JRRT, Osanwe-Kenta, was only available in a limited fashion. Originally published in Vinyar Tengwar in 1998, this essay was available only to those who had a copy or could find it, or excerpts of it, on the internet. Osanwe-Kenta was known to many here, and I was fortunate enough to get a copy of that edition of the pamphlet shortly after it came out.

The essay, on its face and from a quick review, addresses mind to mind communication, primarily what we see at the end of LoTR during the post-war journey back north, when the bearers of the three Elven Rings converse in this manner after the Hobbits have fallen asleep. However, the essay goes much deeper than being a simple discussion of Elvish "telepathy." The essay touches upon the relationship of the "soul" (Fea) to the body (hroa), the "clothing" of Valar and Maiar in "bodies," and, applicable here, gives insight into the fundamental nature of Morgoth.

Osanwe-Kenta states that for minds to communicate without words, among other things, both the sender and the receiver must be willing participants. Osanwe can not be used when a participant is unwilling. This type of communication cannot be forced. Nor can information be "stolen" from another's mind without permission. For this reason, when Hurin was captured and brought to Angband, Morgoth could not simply look into his mind and take from him the location of Gondolin. Morgoth could physically torture Hurin or use Osanwe to pressure Hurin's mind or cause pain or distress. Morgoth could also use Osanwe to show things to Hurin (just as Gorlim, a member of Barahir's band, was "shown" an image of his wife to cause him to betray Barahir). But Morgoth could not simply take from an unwilling Hurin's mind the information he wanted.

So what does this have to do with Hurin's curse? The essay also discusses "axani" and "unati." Axani are rules or laws imposed by Eru. It would be an axan that one should not murder another. Unati are things that are impossible or cannot be done due to the nature of Arda. Among the unati is using osanwe against one's will. It cannot be done. Morgoth's nature, at least as he evolved, was to repudiate all axani and rage against all unati. Imagine Morgoth's fury when he could not take from Hurin the location of Gondolin. But he could use osanwe to pressure Hurin and his family and to deceive them or lead them astray.

Turin, Morwen and Nienor were willful and prideful. But these traits were subject to the influence of Morgoth, at least when his attention was focused upon them. Elsewhere on these boards, it has been speculated that while they were in Doriath, behind Melian's girdle, Morgoth could neither perceive them or directly affect them. But their temperaments had already been affected by Morgoth, and in their pride and willfulness, they left Doriath and became available to Morgoth's influence. This is how I believe Morgoth's curse worked it's way to fulfillment.

and

Morgoth did not undertake to influence or even kill Hurin, he chose to destroy him and his family. Hurin and his family were not merely shown images, whether false, exaggerated or subject to misinterpretation. They were the focal points of Morgoth's malice and influence, which, as I suggest above, was inexorable and beyond their ability to resist. At the end, Hurin was physically and emotionally a broken man, but he was not "perverted" as perhaps Saruman was. He did not, at least not intentionally, betray his old friends and allies. He did slay Mim (at least in some versions), which may have been wrongful though deserved. He was undeservedly scornful towards Thingol, at least until he was, to some extent, relieved from Morgoth's sway by Melian. But his disclosure of Gondolin's general location was not a knowing betrayal. Ultimately, his will was not broken.

However, I also noted:

The wording of Morgoth's curse is relevant here. There is a marked difference between what appears in the Silmarillion and what is said in the Children of Hurin (and, unfortunately, I cannot put my hands on Unfinished Tales right now). The Silmarillion barely summarizes the curse, stating that "Morgoth cursed Hurin and Morwen and their offspring, and set a doom upon them of darkness and sorrow..." This, on its face, might not extend past the family itself. In contrast, Children of Hurin sets out an extended dialogue between Hurin and Morgoth. In relevant part, Morgoth is quoted as follows:

Quote:
"But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."

Maybe this explains why Turin and his family seemed to shed ill-fate like a duck sheds water?

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I do not believe that Turin's "curse" was a curse in the classic sense, meaning that Morgoth simply created an enchantment that followed Turin and his kin, causing bad things to happen resulting from the words he uttered themselves. I think that it was, instead, the result of specific attention and will being exerted by Morgoth.

Looking at your quotes, it seems that we're in agreement broadly speaking.

However, I'd like to point out something in this quote:

"But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."

Maybe this explains why Turin and his family seemed to shed ill-fate like a duck sheds water?

The way I see it, there are only two explanations behind Morgoth' "curse":

1) The "curse" is just 'wind', i.e. it has no power whatsoever other than what Morgoth imbues it with due to his obssession/actions + what the victim of the "curse" does with it

2) Iluvatar 'approved' of this curse, and made it real - which, while horrific, isn't too far from the Book of Job, especially if there was some cosmic significance of things happening the way they did


Personally, I prefer interpretation no. 1), not only because it's less horrifying, but also because it allows the interplay of free will vs fate in an organic way, never outright stating what was and wasn't due to Morgoth's influence outright, and what was and wasn't due to Turin's...eh...idiosyncracies...


The no. 1) is also much more in line with ancient Greek myths, which I adore.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

2) Iluvatar 'approved' of this curse, and made it real - which, while horrific, isn't too far from the Book of Job, especially if there was some cosmic significance of things happening the way they did.

This statement doesn't quite sit right with me on the ground of the assumption that Iluvatar's "permission" or assistance was needed to cast the curse. Morgoth, like all of Eru's creations, has his own free will and is free to execute it. If the Valar can create a sense of blessing, or help people out in little (and even not so little) ways without applying to Eru each time - why can't Morgoth do the same? Or is the implication that Eru ought to have "blocked" this particular curse, as it infringed on the free will of Men - one of the fundamental essenses of his creation? But Morgoth's curse doesn't take away their free will, it just influences the outcome. Turin and co. are free to act however they choose. But Men only choose the action, not the outcome. So no contradiction. No reason why Morgoth's ill-attention can exert the same effect of ill-luck as the Valar's positive attention creates a cloud of "good luck" and protection.


You made me think though about what sort of "out" Turin might realistically have had. Though many of his specific choices and words might be questioned, the general theme that runs through all his seeming "outs" is a choice between fighting Morgoth and living a relatively quiet and obscure life... and Turin cannot but rise up to fight Morgoth, wherever he may be. Pridefully or humbly, rudely or politely, but Turin will always eventually steer towards the path of putting himself up as Morgoth's opponent - and I think this is what opens him to the effects of Morgoth's ill-will. The bigger deeds you stir up, the bigger the consequence of disaster. And of course how easy to identify yourself as Morgoth's target when you draw his attention on the battlefield in any case. Turin's best option might have been to clear out a field or two to plow and live off his farm, a quiet and humble and sheltered existence. But he could never do that. He could not let go of his hatred for Morgoth, for what has been done at the Nirnaeth and in the subsequent years during the occupation, not to mention the ancestral hatred he inherited by his upbringing even during the peaceful years. Turin could not keep his head down and rest, knowing he had so much strength of mind and body and yet not lifting a finger to battle Morgoth in this most direct way. This brings me to an interesting thought. Perhaps Turin's true escape from the curse would have been in forgiving Morgoth. Forgiveness as a means of becoming unreachable to ill-will, and finding his own peace. There is a certain fan-fic which explores a similar idea with Beren, but I think it's even more interesting with Turin.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This statement doesn't quite sit right with me on the ground of the assumption that Iluvatar's "permission" or assistance was needed to cast the curse. Morgoth, like all of Eru's creations, has his own free will and is free to execute it. If the Valar can create a sense of blessing, or help people out in little (and even not so little) ways without applying to Eru each time - why can't Morgoth do the same? Or is the implication that Eru ought to have "blocked" this particular curse, as it infringed on the free will of Men - one of the fundamental essenses of his creation? But Morgoth's curse doesn't take away their free will, it just influences the outcome. Turin and co. are free to act however they choose. But Men only choose the action, not the outcome. So no contradiction. No reason why Morgoth's ill-attention can exert the same effect of ill-luck as the Valar's positive attention creates a cloud of "good luck" and protection.


You made me think though about what sort of "out" Turin might realistically have had. Though many of his specific choices and words might be questioned, the general theme that runs through all his seeming "outs" is a choice between fighting Morgoth and living a relatively quiet and obscure life... and Turin cannot but rise up to fight Morgoth, wherever he may be. Pridefully or humbly, rudely or politely, but Turin will always eventually steer towards the path of putting himself up as Morgoth's opponent - and I think this is what opens him to the effects of Morgoth's ill-will. The bigger deeds you stir up, the bigger the consequence of disaster. And of course how easy to identify yourself as Morgoth's target when you draw his attention on the battlefield in any case. Turin's best option might have been to clear out a field or two to plow and live off his farm, a quiet and humble and sheltered existence. But he could never do that. He could not let go of his hatred for Morgoth, for what has been done at the Nirnaeth and in the subsequent years during the occupation, not to mention the ancestral hatred he inherited by his upbringing even during the peaceful years. Turin could not keep his head down and rest, knowing he had so much strength of mind and body and yet not lifting a finger to battle Morgoth in this most direct way. This brings me to an interesting thought. Perhaps Turin's true escape from the curse would have been in forgiving Morgoth. Forgiveness as a means of becoming unreachable to ill-will, and finding his own peace. There is a certain fan-fic which explores a similar idea with Beren, but I think it's even more interesting with Turin.

First of, and no offense, but can you split your posts into paragraphs - otherwise it's just a giant wall of text?


Second - I don't think that 'living a small life' would be an out for Turin - by the time such a thing was even possible, word would reach out to Morgoth and the rest is 'history'...


Third - no, Morgoth is not supposed to be forgiven, Morgoth is supposed to be eliminated from existence...