Balrog 'v' Moria orcs

[Galadriel55]

Hmm... Given that the orcs seem to live in fear and reverence of the Balrog, if for whatever reason they decided to wage war against him (it?) I feel like their strength in numbers would turn into a disadvantage once organized plans turn into chaos - because bottom line they would still be deadly afraid of the Balrog. I think it's not too different from the Orc-Nazgul relationship. Even though they might physically have some advantage, it would come down to nothing due to the more psychological factor. When I try to imagine Moria orcs rising against the Balrog... at first I see some devious tactics, and some brave cheers, but then one orc panics, and a couple more desert, and it's all chaos - and the more orcs participate, the larger the chaos is.

[Morthoron]

Regarding a Balrog versus Orcs,
The Orcses would be much like corks:
Bobbing up an down in flame,
Whilst the Balrog did enjoy a game
Of spearing passers-by with a fork.

P.S. The Balrog seemed to dispatch Balin and a large company of Dwarves with relative ease; I don't see a gaggle of Orcs being much more difficult.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

P.S. The Balrog seemed to dispatch Balin and a large company of Dwarves with relative ease; I don't see a gaggle of Orcs being much more difficult.

I think the main thing - well, two things really - would be 1. Numbers: the orcs are countless, and 2. The orcs know at least a bit what they are dealing with (and they would know even more if they are the initiators of this war with the purpose of getting rid of the Balrog). It seems to me that the Dwarves really had no clue what the creature was, and where he lived, and what were his habits, his abilities. The orcs, being more familiar with some of these things, would have the simple strategical advantage of thinking ahead.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think the main thing - well, two things really - would be 1. Numbers: the orcs are countless, and 2. The orcs know at least a bit what they are dealing with (and they would know even more if they are the initiators of this war with the purpose of getting rid of the Balrog). It seems to me that the Dwarves really had no clue what the creature was, and where he lived, and what were his habits, his abilities. The orcs, being more familiar with some of these things, would have the simple strategical advantage of thinking ahead.

Hmmm...were there "countless orcs" in Moria? If so, what did they eat?
I can't recall any given number. And as far as Orcs being strategic and thinking ahead, I don't believe there are many cases where Orcs displayed Napoleonic stratagems to defeat a foe, particularly one like a Balrog who, of course, is a Maia -- and one with wings!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...were there "countless orcs" in Moria? If so, what did they eat?
I can't recall any given number. And as far as Orcs being strategic and thinking ahead, I don't believe there are many cases where Orcs displayed Napoleonic stratagems to defeat a foe, particularly one like a Balrog who, of course, is a Maia -- and one with wings!

...you... you really had to go there, didn't you?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...were there "countless orcs" in Moria? If so, what did they eat?
I can't recall any given number. And as far as Orcs being strategic and thinking ahead, I don't believe there are many cases where Orcs displayed Napoleonic stratagems to defeat a foe, particularly one like a Balrog who, of course, is a Maia -- and one with wings!

Chicken wings are a deadly weapon when it comes to food fights, true.

(And that indeed explains what the orcs would have eaten!)




Seriously, though - what would even one orc eat in Moria? If you can find food for one, you can find food for two. I thought Moria was absolutely barren in that sense, and if they got fresh food at all, it was from hunting on moonless nights. I don't see why you can't feed many many many orcs that way. They don't seem to gorge themselves on food, and it's possible to hunt without depleting the region of wildlife.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Seriously, though - what would even one orc eat in Moria? If you can find food for one, you can find food for two. I thought Moria was absolutely barren in that sense, and if they got fresh food at all, it was from hunting on moonless nights. I don't see why you can't feed many many many orcs that way. They don't seem to gorge themselves on food, and it's possible to hunt without depleting the region of wildlife.

The Uruk-hai in Rohan had dried meat and bread. Hunting and gathering such plants and shoots as they could eat in the immediate area of the East-gate would probably have been sufficient. It doesn't look like the garrison in Moria was very large anyway.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Seriously, though - what would even one orc eat in Moria?

Each other. I would say that being the runt of any orc litter was probably a ghastly fate. They may have also harvested edible fungi and, like Gollum, eaten the blind fish in the waters underground.

As for whether or not they could, collectively, beat a Balrog, there is a quote often attributed to Stalin during WWII which goes, "Quantity has a quality all its own". So, perhaps, yes.

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Each other. I would say that being the runt of any orc litter was probably a ghastly fate.

I don't think Orcs actually eat eachother, otherwise wouldent there eventualy be none left?

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think the main thing - well, two things really - would be 1. Numbers: the orcs are countless, and 2. The orcs know at least a bit what they are dealing with (and they would know even more if they are the initiators of this war with the purpose of getting rid of the Balrog). It seems to me that the Dwarves really had no clue what the creature was, and where he lived, and what were his habits, his abilities. The orcs, being more familiar with some of these things, would have the simple strategical advantage of thinking ahead.

yes the Orcs would definatly have a strategic advantage, if they were smart (if that's the right word?) enough to use it, the outcome would depend on there tactics as well, I think rushing in to a big fight might be the wrong way to go about it.

Does the Balrog have wings? Why didn't it fly when Gandalf broke the bridge???
"You shall not pass"

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Axbolt

Does the Balrog have wings? Why didn't it fly when Gandalf broke the bridge???

It is related through evolution to penguins and ostriches. See, after the Balrogs flew at the end of the First Age, they never used their wings again, and so over many generations the wings became vestigial features, quite useless for flight but still important for other biologically important events. For instance, Balrogs often puff out their wings to appear bigger when they want to frighten off their enemies, and the size, shape, and coloration of the wings is a major factor in mate selection.




...What? This is the Mirth forum!


That aside (but for the record, I don't think the Balrog had wings), I don't think the orcs would have gathered many plants and shoots - they don't seem to be the ones for a veggie diet.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think the orcs would have gathered many plants and shoots - they don't seem to be the ones for a veggie diet.

What about scurvy and beriberi, though? Surely even Orcs couldn't subsist on just meat and Vitamin S(auron).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What about scurvy and beriberi, though? Surely even Orcs couldn't subsist on just meat and Vitamin S(auron).

Well I don't know. I mean, a certain Elf - and potentially even a certain Man - could subsist on nothing whatsoever for years during the First Age when trapped in the Thangorodrim. (Though on the contrary it always bothered my sense of realism that Beren swore to kill no good creature and essentially became a vegetarian. Hard to do when you can't plant, have limited time to gather, and can't really make stocks because you're on the run/hunt from/for Morgoth's creatures.)

But point taken. Perhaps my perception of orcs has been influenced too much by the movies.

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It is related through evolution to penguins and ostriches.

So your suggesting Balrogs are related to penguins? That would be a major contribution to global warming!!!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Which Elf? Who knows what Morgoth fed his thralls. Probably nothing particularly wholesome.
As for Húrin, if that's the Man you have in mind, I don't think he ate while imprisoned. Morgoth seems to have had him in some sort of stasis: he couldn't move, or even die, so lack of food shouldn't have been an issue.

I was referring to Maedhros. If I remember correctly, he spent quite some time hanging by one arm on the cliffs, and I doubt Morgoth bothered to send up food.

I personally agree about Hurin - I don't think Morgoth sent him food. I don't think he even sent anyone to check on him. He knew exactly what was up with him, and didn't want to ruin the effect of utter solitude and helplessness. But that's a side topic.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Beren ate Orcs and the evil black squirrels.

You know, at one point in my life I thought the former. But as soon as I thought that thought, I realized that was so disgusting I would rather have Beren go about as a vegetarian.

But other orcs eating orcs isn't at all foreign-sounding (and even canonical to the extent of possibility). If there was famine in Moria for whatever reason...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Axbolt

So your suggesting Balrogs are related to penguins? That would be a major contribution to global warming!!!

No wonder the polar ice is melting!