Balrog 'v' Moria orcs

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Each other. I would say that being the runt of any orc litter was probably a ghastly fate.

I don't think Orcs actually eat eachother, otherwise wouldent there eventualy be none left?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Axbolt

I don't think Orcs actually eat eachother, otherwise wouldent there eventualy be none left?

Perhaps it wasn't an everyday practice, but since we see them threatening one another with cannibalism, there was probably some truth to it.

[Mithadan]

Not to inject seriousness into this topic (well, OK maybe to make a serious comment) there is a lengthy and near legendary thread that, in part, addresses the issue of food in Moria. It is linked here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=bridge.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Not to inject seriousness into this topic (well, OK maybe to make a serious comment) there is a lengthy and near legendary thread that, in part, addresses the issue of food in Moria. It is linked here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=bridge.

Oh my eyes! The broken code!

Originally Posted by Andsigil

As for whether or not they could, collectively, beat a Balrog, there is a quote often attributed to Stalin during WWII which goes, "Quantity has a quality all its own". So, perhaps, yes.

I don't think, short of Sauron's actual presence, the orcs would or could have attacked the balrog. I believe the balrog would have exercised an influence on the orcs that I don't think even the Nazgul would have been able to overcome.

Had Sauron been present and needed to take down the balrog (and I could imagine such a scenario being possible, evil not getting along very well with itself) and Sauron not choosing to wade in himself, then yes, I think numbers would have told in the end.

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Oh my eyes! The broken code!

I don't think, short of Sauron's actual presence, the orcs would or could have attacked the balrog. I believe the balrog would have exercised an influence on the orcs that I don't think even the Nazgul would have been able to overcome.

So if Sauron himself stayed out of it, the Balrog could be more powerful than the Nazgul? And beat them in a streight fight? That is an interesting idea

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Axbolt

So if Sauron himself stayed out of it, the Balrog could be more powerful than the Nazgul? And beat them in a streight fight? That is an interesting idea

Well, the Balrog, as a Maia that had chosen to serve Melkor, was basically a peer of Sauron.
Actually, by the time of the Third Age Sauron had expended a great deal of his own native power in the domination of his slaves, so a Ringless Sauron could really have been substantially weaker than the Balrog.

The Nazgûl, as further diluted extensions of Sauron's spirit, could not have stood against the Balrog. Nor, do I think, could they have had many options in harming it. Their main power was in terror, though their king did have a measure of sorcery through the utter submission of his will to his master.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Nazgûl, as further diluted extensions of Sauron's spirit, could not have stood against the Balrog. Nor, do I think, could they have had many options in harming it. Their main power was in terror, though their king did have a measure of sorcery through the utter submission of his will to his master.

Additionally, the Nazgûl in their origins were lesser beings than the Balrog and their transformation did not change that.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Perhaps it wasn't an everyday practice, but since we see them threatening one another with cannibalism, there was probably some truth to it.

Yes, but it can't really be the answer to the question, "What do they eat?" I mean they couldn't have been each other's staple diet.

By the way, how many of these "Balrog vs x" topics have we had now?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, but it can't really be the answer to the question, "What do they eat?" I mean they couldn't have been each other's staple diet.

No, I think the cannibalism was an occasional aberration; uncommon, but not unheard of.
I still say dried meat was likely the mainstay, with maybe fish from the nearby rivers and wild greens.
The latter wouldn't be a preferred foodstuff probably, but I can see the leaders forcing them on the troops for their own good, like ship captains ensuring fruit and juice consumption to prevent scurvy.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

By the way, how many of these "Balrog vs x" topics have we had now?

Might as well ask what a group of Balrogs flying in formation was called.

[Nerwen]

Might as well...

[denethorthefirst]

The Balrog defeated the dwarves of Moria who had better weapons and superior organisation, culture, technology, you name it ... Why would the orcs of moria fare better in a fight against the Balrog? I don't think that they would stand a chance. Considering how primitive orcs on their own are (and the Orc population of moria seems pretty autonomous) they probably have (after a few hundred years in Moria) developed their own religion around the Balrog and worship him as a god while he is barely aware of them ...

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

The Balrog defeated the dwarves of Moria who had better weapons and superior organisation, culture, technology, you name it ... Why would the orcs of moria fare better in a fight against the Balrog? I don't think that they would stand a chance. Considering how primitive orcs on their own are (and the Orc population of moria seems pretty autonomous) they probably have (after a few hundred years in Moria) developed their own religion around the Balrog and worship him as a god while he is barely aware of them ...

There is probably more than a little to this.

The Orcs aren't exactly "Primitive" in terms of their technology, though. Just not very creative. Tolkien describes their tools as: Well-made, but crude, and ruthlessly efficient.

But it would very much have been inferior to that of Dwarves. As well as likely being weaker than Dwarves.

And Orcs seemed to be much easier to cow, such that they would tend to avoid challenging a greater bully.

And... One theme that seems to run through all of Tolkien's discussion of the beings who have fallen under The Shadow is that they have a tendency toward "Morgothism" (setting up false religions that worship false-Power - false meaning "Not derived from Eru").

So it would be not at all surprising to see the Orcs worshipping the Balrog in Moria, given he was a Maia who was already a form of Angelic Power (although Fallen).

MB