Tom Bombadil – An Intriguing Answer !

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

I have read Ms Seth's earlier book, as well as her latest writing on Tom Bombadil.

In the book, she spends several chapters trying to puzzle out whether the Balrog had wings, as if this was a particular puzzle that Tolkien had left us. However, there is NOTHING whatsoever in The Lord Of The Rings to indicate that the matter of the Balrog's wings was anything other than unintentional ambiguity. The great debate about the wings really only started after Tolkien died, as far as I can tell, so looking for coded answers in the text seems like a fool's errand. Of course, Ms Seth finds three anagrams that supposedly reveal the hidden truth. I won't spoil the surprise.

Her argument that Tolkien "must" have left a coded message about the Balrog is based on Tolkien being familiar with codes - both through his work in the First World War and also because he sent coded messages to Edith during that war to tell her where he was (something that was forbidden). He must have been pretty good because the military censors never noticed. However, just because Tolkien could encode a "secret message" in a text proves nothing whether there is one or more "messages" about the Balrog hidden in the text, and frankly it is quite easy to find all sorts of unintentional anagrams in a given piece of text.

I thought her Tom Bombadil essay showed more promise. The idea of the theatre/audience was interesting. However, before Part IV I thought to myself "I bet there's going to be another bloody anagram!" and, of course, there was. The anagram itself only reveals what most people assume about Tom - that he is a Maia. So hardly an "intriguing answer" is it?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Her argument that Tolkien "must" have left a coded message about the Balrog is based on Tolkien being familiar with codes - both through his work in the First World War and also because he sent coded messages to Edith during that war to tell her where he was (something that was forbidden). He must have been pretty good because the military censors never noticed. However, just because Tolkien could encode a "secret message" in a text proves nothing whether there is one or more "messages" about the Balrog hidden in the text, and frankly it is quite easy to find all sorts of unintentional anagrams in a given piece of text.

People who expect to see secret signs and codes tend to find them, whether they really exist, or not.

Honestly, I've never gotten why the wings question merited the apparent controversy around it. To me it's just an interesting side issue. And they did not have wings, of course.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I thought her Tom Bombadil essay showed more promise. The idea of the theatre/audience was interesting. However, before Part IV I thought to myself "I bet there's going to be another bloody anagram!" and, of course, there was. The anagram itself only reveals what most people assume about Tom - that he is a Maia. So hardly an "intriguing answer" is it?

Yeah, the Maia argument is pretty shopworn. That's the go-to answer it seems, for any seeming immortals in Arda who can't be otherwise classified.

[Zigûr]

Has anyone ever read The Rule of Four (2004) by Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason? It's a Dan Brown-ish novel in which the plot revolves around the idea that the obscure 15th century text Hypnerotomachia Poliphilli is actually a coded message which, if decoded, reveals the location of a number of Renaissance treasures saved from the Bonfire of the Vanities.

Pretty ridiculous stuff, as you can imagine.

The idea that Tolkien left anagrams in his work to reveal secrets always reminds me of that novel. It's notionally an intriguing premise for a narrative, but not very consistent with what happens in real life.

By the way, Balrogs did not have wings and Tom was not a Maia

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Has anyone ever read The Rule of Four (2004) by Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason? It's a Dan Brown-ish novel in which the plot revolves around the idea that the obscure 15th century text Hypnerotomachia Poliphilli is actually a coded message which, if decoded, reveals the location of a number of Renaissance treasures saved from the Bonfire of the Vanities.

Yes! There were a whole lot of those secret-message-historical-conspiracy yarns published around then, and my aunt bought *all* of them. If that's the one I think it was, it's better written than most, but also more pretentious and *much* whinier. Sort of "The Da Vinci Code" as narrated by Holden Caulfield.

By the way, Balrogs did not have wings and Tom was not a Maia

What have you done???

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Has anyone ever read The Rule of Four (2004) by Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason? It's a Dan Brown-ish novel in which the plot revolves around the idea that the obscure 15th century text Hypnerotomachia Poliphilli is actually a coded message which, if decoded, reveals the location of a number of Renaissance treasures saved from the Bonfire of the Vanities.

Pretty ridiculous stuff, as you can imagine.

Have you read Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum? It makes these other Dan Brown-type novels look like child's play. Perhaps that's because Eco is actually a professor of semiotics, and the satiric story is about three publishers who become bored with their work and decide to invent a conspiracy just for intellectual fun; fun until other conspiracy groups believe their crackpot plot.

In a world without PCs (1989), I had to read this with encyclopedias on standby for the amount of allusions, citations, quotes, etc. In certain parts it's completely mind-boggling.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The idea that Tolkien left anagrams in his work to reveal secrets always reminds me of that novel. It's notionally an intriguing premise for a narrative, but not very consistent with what happens in real life

By the way, Balrogs did not have wings and Tom was not a Maia

Interestingly enough, did you know that if you played the original tape of Tolkien reciting the "Bridge of Khazad-dum" chapter looped backwards, it says:

Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies...

Some researchers suggest this was during Tolkien's White Album period.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly enough, did you know that if you played the original tape of Tolkien reciting the "Bridge of Khazad-dum" chapter looped backwards, it says:

Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies...

Some researchers suggest this was during Tolkien's White Album period.

That's a new one.

The one I always liked, the great Rings of power...1, 3, 7, and 9. Tolkien died in 1973. Coincidence? Actually, yes, yes it is.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Have you read Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum? It makes these other Dan Brown-type novels look like child's play. Perhaps that's because Eco is actually a professor of semiotics, and the satiric story is about three publishers who become bored with their work and decide to invent a conspiracy just for intellectual fun; fun until other conspiracy groups believe their crackpot plot.

In a world without PCs (1989), I had to read this with encyclopedias on standby for the amount of allusions, citations, quotes, etc. In certain parts it's completely mind-boggling.



Interestingly enough, did you know that if you played the original tape of Tolkien reciting the "Bridge of Khazad-dum" chapter looped backwards, it says:

Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies. Balrogses have Wingsies...

Some researchers suggest this was during Tolkien's White Album period.

If you play the Tolkien tape of The Ring Verse backwards you can clearly hear him saying "Nazgul Nine ... Nazgul Nine ... Nazgul Nine..."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

a number of Renaissance treasures saved from the Bonfire of the Vanities.

Especially ridiculous if one is aware that the artworks etc destroyed in Savonarola's little festivals were tossed in by their own owners, overcome by fundie guilt; it's not like there were mobs of Roundheads rampaging through people's homes and grabbing their stuff.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Especially ridiculous if one is aware that the artworks etc destroyed in Savonarola's little festivals were tossed in by their own owners, overcome by fundie guilt; it's not like there were mobs of Roundheads rampaging through people's homes and grabbing their stuff.

Depending on whether or not you wish to depend on Giorgio Vasari's account (some of his biographical information is dubious), the great painter Botticelli (The Birth of Venus, Primavera, Adoration of the Magi, etc.), an adherent to Savonarola, burned some of his own paintings in the bonfires, causing himself great financial distress.