The Fellowship - doomed to fail

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

Reluctantly or not, to allow his son, heir, and chief captain to journey into the ruined North, apparently unescorted, with the precise destination unknown, on the basis of a dream? - emphasis added

Now that you mention it, that is odd.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Now that you mention it, that is odd.

Actually, if Denethor had made the connection between "Isildur's Bane" and "Sauron's Ring", as Inzila and Faramir surmise upthread, it would go a long way to explaining why he'd allow Boromir to take on the errand. But even a more conservative reading of the situation allows for Denethor (who perhaps already had become quite hopeless about the prospects of Minas Tirith) approving a Hail Mary plan which at the very least would carry his favorite son out of harm's way, albeit temporarily.

Going back to Mith's original queries, it occurred to me that HoME might offer some clues. My HoME-fu isn't what it used to be, but flipping around in The Return of the Shadow and Sauron Defeated suggests a couple of possibilities.

The first, and perhaps least satisfying, explanation for the plan-that-must-fail is that Tolkien seems to have foreseen very early on that Gollum would be the true mechanism of the destruction of the Ring.

But it is most remarkable to find here [in an outline from 1939] -- when there is no suggestion of the vast structure still to be built -- that the corruption of the Shire, and the crucial presence of Gollum on the Fiery Mountain, were very early elements in the whole.

It would be easy to infer that this realization saddled Tolkien with a set of narrative blinders. He knew how the Ring would be destroyed, so it wasn't necessary for his heroes to conceive of an actually workable plan for its destruction.

In the first chapter of Sauron Defeated, Christopher Tolkien sums up a few of his father's different outlines which contemplate the events at Mt. Doom. In each version, Gollum seizes the Ring from Frodo, but various scenarios were considered from there -- he and Frodo wrestle and Gollum falls into the fire; Sam arrives and either pushes Gollum into the fire or tackles him into it in a suicidal blaze of glory; or the seemingly quickly discarded idea that Gollum, in a flash of redemption, would himself dive into the fire with the Ring.

Perhaps -- envisioning a scenario where Gandalf goes all the way with Frodo -- G imagined that his love for Frodo might allow him to help the hobbit give up the Ring at the supreme moment, just as he had helped Bilbo give it up earlier.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Actually, if Denethor had made the connection between "Isildur's Bane" and "Sauron's Ring", as Inzila and Faramir surmise upthread, it would go a long way to explaining why he'd allow Boromir to take on the errand. But even a more conservative reading of the situation allows for Denethor (who perhaps already had become quite hopeless about the prospects of Minas Tirith) approving a Hail Mary plan which at the very least would carry his favorite son out of harm's way, albeit temporarily.

I just now noticed that the emphasis was not added because I stupidly italicized rather than bolding....oops.

Anyway, I was really noting the unescorted part of the trip. I find that quite odd. Even on a secret errand, surely somebody should have gone with Boromir just to make sure some minor mishap on the road didn't kill or injure him.

The first, and perhaps least satisfying, explanation for the plan-that-must-fail is that Tolkien seems to have foreseen very early on that Gollum would be the true mechanism of the destruction of the Ring.

It would be easy to infer that this realization saddled Tolkien with a set of narrative blinders. He knew how the Ring would be destroyed, so it wasn't necessary for his heroes to conceive of an actually workable plan for its destruction.

This is an excellent point.

However, in a way I think (if I may be so bold) that Tolkien would have agreed with my point regarding Gandalf that I made upthread. Ultimately, the issue had to be put in the hands of Eru.

[Mister Underhill]

Yes, I'd agree that clearly in the event the justification for sending Frodo to the Fire was that it was the only way to truly solve the problem of the Ring, and therefore it was the only path worth pursuing, ultimately with the hope (or faith if you prefer) that some unforeseen (although as it happened not exactly unforeseen) sequence of events would lead to its destruction.

I'd add a point which slipped my mind earlier, which is that when the quest to destroy the ring was conceived, the ring hadn't really become the Ring yet. That is to say, Tolkien hadn't really yet seen it as the One Ring to Rule Them All that none could resist. So to an extent the quest to destroy *the* Ring may be an artifact of the quest to destroy *a* ring.

Yes, the idea of Boromir wandering around in the wilderness for the better part of four months is a little funny. Maybe he felt he couldn't justify pulling even one man away from the defense of Minas Tirith?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Yes, the idea of Boromir wandering around in the wilderness for the better part of four months is a little funny. Maybe he felt he couldn't justify pulling even one man away from the defense of Minas Tirith?

Well, Boromir told the Council that Faramir had been the one initially wanting to go out looking for Imladris. Boromir had put himself forward as the one who should go, for the very reason that the journey was so uncertain. Maybe Denethor's love for his elder son itself caused him to be unable to forbid him.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Anyway, I was really noting the unescorted part of the trip. I find that quite odd. Even on a secret errand, surely somebody should have gone with Boromir just to make sure some minor mishap on the road didn't kill or injure him.

I'm not so sure. Obviously Boromir was a noble, but I think, if Aragorn could, why not Boromir. I do not think Aragorn went on all his journeys with an escort even though he was a King in Exile. Boromir is as much a Dúnadan as Aragorn, and more likely than not, more than a match for any thug on the road he'd come across. Though I am with you about the escort, however, since it seems Aragorn was not bound to any escort (as I see when he's the bodyguard of the Ring-bearer to Rivendell, chased down by Nazgul) I suppose someone of Boromir's stature need not be either.

[Galadriel55]

Regarding the escort, perhaps Boromir's pride would not allow him to accept one, even if Denethor wanted him to have one. This isn't your usual trip up the mountains; it's a quest with something mystical to it. He may have said that he will go seek Rivendell with the same attitude as people said that they will go seek the Holy Grail. He would also want to prove himself as a hardened warrior not just in battle, to show that he is able to survive and accomplish his mission without an escort.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Regarding the escort, perhaps Boromir's pride would not allow him to accept one, even if Denethor wanted him to have one. This isn't your usual trip up the mountains; it's a quest with something mystical to it. He may have said that he will go seek Rivendell with the same attitude as people said that they will go seek the Holy Grail. He would also want to prove himself as a hardened warrior not just in battle, to show that he is able to survive and accomplish his mission without an escort.

Another consideration Denethor may have had regards the secretive nature of the mission. The matter of Isildur's Bane, even if that term wouldn't have been generally understood, would surely have been cause for utmost secrecy. Boromir could easily have been the one Denethor would have trusted most both to endure the journey, and to keep Elrond's advice just between the two of them.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, Boromir told the Council that Faramir had been the one initially wanting to go out looking for Imladris. Boromir had put himself forward as the one who should go, for the very reason that the journey was so uncertain. Maybe Denethor's love for his elder son itself caused him to be unable to forbid him.

One would think his love for Boromir would make it more likely that he would want a least a few people to go with him so that he, for example, doesn't accidently drown in Tharbad. To say nothing of the potential political risk of having his heir travelling in the Wild alone for hundreds of miles.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not so sure. Obviously Boromir was a noble, but I think, if Aragorn could, why not Boromir. I do not think Aragorn went on all his journeys with an escort even though he was a King in Exile.

Boromir's nobility is not the issue. Of course, they were both able to survive in the Wild on their own. The question is one of practicality. One person alone in the wilderness is much more likely to come to grief than four or five people, especially on a journey of this length.

since it seems Aragorn was not bound to any escort (as I see when he's the bodyguard of the Ring-bearer to Rivendell, chased down by Nazgul) I suppose someone of Boromir's stature need not be either.

Technically speaking, Aragorn was the rustic chief of an insignificant people until he became King of Gondor. Politically speaking, Boromir was a much more significant figure. Sending him off on horseback for hundreds of miles unescorted is a profound political risk. That is why it makes it so odd Denethor allowed this.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Regarding the escort, perhaps Boromir's pride would not allow him to accept one, even if Denethor wanted him to have one. This isn't your usual trip up the mountains; it's a quest with something mystical to it. He may have said that he will go seek Rivendell with the same attitude as people said that they will go seek the Holy Grail. He would also want to prove himself as a hardened warrior not just in battle, to show that he is able to survive and accomplish his mission without an escort.

A fair point, even though Lancelot and Galahad had their squires...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Another consideration Denethor may have had regards the secretive nature of the mission. The matter of Isildur's Bane, even if that term wouldn't have been generally understood, would surely have been cause for utmost secrecy. Boromir could easily have been the one Denethor would have trusted most both to endure the journey, and to keep Elrond's advice just between the two of them.

Another fair point, still the escorts wouldn't need to be briefed on the mission or allowed to attend anything important.

On the whole I am inclined to chalk this up as an oopsie of the same type (although not magnitude) as the dwarves setting off on the Quest of Erebor with no weapons.