Of Wizards and Time-Lords

[Galadriel55]

As I was mourning the passing of the Tenth Doctor, I attended a meeting about language and identity, and it turned out that the presenter was a Whovian and had quite a few examples of dialect perception from the show. I chatted with her for a bit afterwards, it was really cool - you don't often meet a person who's fascinated by two of the same things as you are. We talked about lots of planets that have a north, and about Judoon platoons upon the Moon, but here's something she told me that I never thought about before. She was discussing how different dialects are subconsciously associated with a certain group of people, and based on relationships with that group the language variation is perceived differently (fancy, formal, low-class, differences in race, class, location, etc). For instance, British accents as a whole are thought of as "cool", classy, formal, etc on this side of the pond. For instance, we hear the Ninth Doctor and Rose Tyler talk, and we subconsciously think they are cool just because of the way they speak (all true based on personal experience). However, apparently England English middle class people tend to look down on the accents that these characters speak - the Doctor sounds like he's from the North, which I'm assuming is subconsciously "uncool", and Rose sounds lower class. It would be really cool if someone from thereabout could actually confirm the influence of their accents, but at least this is supposed to be the theory.

I realized that Doctor Who probably contains a lot more "British" things - things you wouldn't really get unless you were familiar with that culture. In a way also, I think the writers/directors/producers may be imposing certain cultural aspects or preferences onto the show. Perhaps it is because of their main audience, and because the whole thing is based in the UK, but potentially because people automatically impose their own views or knowledge or feelings on their creations, to an extent.

The same is true for Tolkien, in many cases. LOTR is "based" from the Shire - the Shire is home, it's the normal, and it's the place that you relate to most naturally as home. However, in a way, it's Tolkien's home, but not necessarily the home of all the readers. There are some things that may be universal, like Frodo's desire to save the world for the sake of the Shire, but some details are very culture-specific. Specifically, when Sam keeps reminiscing about the Shire during the trek to Mordor, he brings up a lot of details of what home means to him. These details are part of what Tolkien probably felt meant home to him, or to people like him, but they might not be intuitive for all people. Easiest example is fish and chips. Many people can probably relate channeling nostalgia through food or smell, but not everyone would pick fish and chips as the dish. They would still get the general idea, but some poignancy of the image is probably lost.

To a large extent, TH and LOTR are shaped around the perceptions of the hobbits traveling in foreign lands. We see the world through a hobbit filter. That filter most closely matches to Tolkien's own view, and people whose cultures overlap his the most probably get the best "image". We see Doctor Who through the eyes of the companions, which are almost all British, and I feel like I'm missing quite a few details looking at it from their cultural filter (the whole accent thing being one of them).

This is true for any work - everything has a culture associated with it that doesn't always match the culture of the audience. I'm reading War and Peace, I'm almost finished, and I'm still not used to the ideas of fashion and taste (my friend was most disturbed by the woman with the beautiful mustache, but the thing I have most trouble accepting is the plump limp hands that apparently bespeak firm character and authority). But that's more like a complete immersion into a different place/time, while LOTR and New Who appear to be more culture filters: the ideas are universal, but some tiny little details are almost like inside jokes. It's not a bad thing, but it's a thing. It's actually kind of cool. And given how many parallels people draw between the legendarium and Tolkien's own experiences and culture, I think it's a legit point of comparison with Doctor Who.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

However, apparently England English middle class people tend to look down on the accents that these characters speak - the Doctor sounds like he's from the North, which I'm assuming is subconsciously "uncool", and Rose sounds lower class. It would be really cool if someone from thereabout could actually confirm the influence of their accents, but at least this is supposed to be the theory.

Interestingly, I was going over the first chapter of Book Five of The Lord of the Rings the other day and it's worth noting how often the Men of Gondor point out that Pippin speaks Westron with a different accent to them, something not always remarked upon elsewhere in the text. Beregond observes that "strange accents do not mar fair speech". Linguistic diversity is obviously important to Professor Tolkien, and here it seems to also extend to accent as well.

It's worth noting that in Classic Doctor Who, the first to sixth Doctors all spoke "BBC English", which is to say that they spoke with the "Received Pronunciation" accent which BBC Newsreaders and the like also used. Part of the point of this was because BBC programming was often aired all over the world, and a clear and precise accent was intended to be easier for a variety of language backgrounds to understand. Within the show, it was not until Fourth Doctor serial "The Masque of Mandragora" that an attempt was made to explain why the Doctor and his companions can understand all languages: "It's a Time Lord gift I allow you to share." The New Series later changed this to the TARDIS translating everything. At other times the Doctor was shown to not do this; the Third Doctor speaks mainland Chinese to a Chinese government representative in "The Mind of Evil", for instance, and it is untranslated for the audience.

Obviously it's a convenience, but one aspect of Doctor Who's general celebration of exploration and thus difference and diversity which might be a little limited is its exploration of language, which has not always received that much attention. The New Series has, I think, explored this a little more than Classic did. Professor Tolkien, by contrast, loved diversity of language and different languages, and this is reflected in his fiction. At the same time, however, he also has the convenience of a "Common Speech" in his writing, be it Sindarin in the First Age or Westron in the Third, which allows for convenience in communication. In that sense, perhaps both explore the role of language in the creation of the Secondary World, although it might be said that Professor Tolkien celebrates it a little more.

[Galadriel55]

Just binge-watched two series of the 11th Doctor in a couple days at the expense of real life... I can see what you mean about the whole warrior thing now. And... basically, I agree with you. However, some elements of that development have a bit of a Lathspell ring - a man who is blamed for a lot of trouble happening when really he just coincides with the trouble because he's trying to stop it. And as the audience, you know you can trust him and you know that he's helping, and you want to convince the other characters to listen to him too. But you also have Wormtongues running around spreading mistrust among people and blaming the man for the trouble. It's not his fault, Grimas! Be thankful that he averts what trouble he does!

On an unrelated note, is it me, or is New Who just trying to give a nod to as many other fandoms as possible? Not that I mind, but they do seem to love Star Trek. Still waiting for a Star Wars one though.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

In that sense, perhaps both explore the role of language in the creation of the Secondary World, although it might be said that Professor Tolkien celebrates it a little more.

And you know, I was thinking about that, and as someone who loves languages I feel somewhat cheated that everything sounds the same in the Whovian world. There are snippets of other languages here and there (Judoon is most prominent), but for the most part everything is just plain. I know that it's a show, and therefore has to be in English, but one thing I liked about LOTR was the description of how other languages sound to other people - like when hobbits hear Elvish, or when Legolas describes Rohirric. In Who, you don't even get a description of the feel of the languages. But there was a nice little bit of wordplay with names in the last few episodes. I had a feeling there was something up with this person's name - I know companions have short, resounding, catchy names, but this one was a bit over the top. Loved that part. Loved the revelation, and the name riddle.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And you know, I was thinking about that, and as someone who loves languages I feel somewhat cheated that everything sounds the same in the Whovian world. There are snippets of other languages here and there (Judoon is most prominent), but for the most part everything is just plain. I know that it's a show, and therefore has to be in English, but one thing I liked about LOTR was the description of how other languages sound to other people - like when hobbits hear Elvish, or when Legolas describes Rohirric. In Who, you don't even get a description of the feel of the languages.

There's no way to do that in television (or film) that I can think of, though.