Prince Imrahil and his mortality

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

We can also look at this from a story-external point of view: if Imrahil didn't, in fact, have Elvish ancestry, why include that dialogue at all?

Well if Imrahil was a close relation of Elendil then he would have Elvish ancestry, but through Elros.

1.Turin, Tuor and even Aragorn are all described at times as looking more like Elf Lords than men. I am sure if Legolas had met either Turin or Tuor he might mistakenly assume they had Elvish blood. If they could be mistaken for full Elves, then I it's even more likely Elves, had Dior not been the only exception at the time, would assume the same for them.

2.Mithrellas actions seem contrary to most Elves, who were very close to their childen. Apart from Miriel I can't think of any other example of Elves abandoning their children.

3.Thirdly as Gwindor said elves and men have only married to result in some great purpose and if we are speaking strictly that has only happened twice in recorded history. Beren/Luthien and Tuor/Idris. It's not the sort of thing fate (Eru) permits except for some great reason.

4. As previously stated Elvish blood alone would not be enough for the Princes to be the second greatest nobles in Gondor. Even in the case of Elrond and Elros they were the rightful chiefs of the House of Hador, the House of Beor and possibly the House of Haleth too.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There was no Choice: that applied only to Earendil, Elwing and their descendants, not to all offspring of Elves and Men. Otherwise, a "one drop" rule applied.


While the text of the War of Wrath chapter dated only from 1937, and was itself just a revision of the end of QN, it is the case that Tolkien had it included in the LQII amanuensis typescript ca 1958, and, more significantly, emended it throughout to take name changes etc into account (e.g. Eonwe for Fionwe), so it appear that this text still had at least some validity after the Lord Of the Rings was published.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

1.Turin, Tuor and even Aragorn are all described at times as looking more like Elf Lords than men. I am sure if Legolas had met either Turin or Tuor he might mistakenly assume they had Elvish blood. If they could be mistaken for full Elves, then I it's even more likely Elves, had Dior not been the only exception at the time, would assume the same for them.

But you see he had already met Aragorn without being all OMG U R TOTES A ELF!!!111!! That suggests a greater significance to me.

Anyway, I'm inclined to think WCH may have the right of here:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There was no Choice: that applied only to Earendil, Elwing and their descendants, not to all offspring of Elves and Men. Otherwise, a "one drop" rule applied.

This would make it irrelevant whether the Mithrellas story is meant to be true or just a family legend.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But you see he had already met Aragorn without being all OMG U R TOTES A ELF!!!111!! That suggests a greater significance to me.

He had met Aragorn knowing his history and probably when Aragorn was worn by travels. We are told that when Aragorn and Arwen were betrothed

But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any king of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold,1 her choice was made and her doom appointed.

By that description Aragorn could easily be mistaken for an Elf.

Imrahil's description and appearance is to give the reader an indication of how great Gondor was and still is. He is after all the highest noble in the country and virtually an independent ruler.

Anyway, I'm inclined to think WCH may have the right of here:

This would make it irrelevant whether the Mithrellas story is meant to be true or just a family legend.

I was not discussing Mithrellas, but the case of Dior and his sons. Mithrellas of course would not have a choice, because the decision had already been made. Dior on the other hand died before a decision had been made and I suspect he may have been given a choice or even assumed to be an elf considering his history.

To further drive home the point. Look at the description of Turin, who didn't even have a drop of Elvish blood.

'But you are kingly,' said she, 'even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had
a brother so valiant. And I do not think that Agarwaen is your name, nor is it fit for you,
Adanedhel. I call you Thurin, the Secret.'

But Turin was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor.

If someone with no Elvish blood could be mistaken for a Noldor Lord straight from seeing the Trees, then I don't see why not so with Imrahil when the same is said of Aragorn.

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, I'd address your points and all that, but... there's this:

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I was not discussing Mithrellas, but the case of Dior and his sons. Mithrellas of course would not have a choice, because the decision had already been made. Dior on the other hand died before a decision had been made and I suspect he may have been given a choice or even assumed to be an elf considering his history.

This entire thread has been about Mithrellas and the implications of Imrahil's possible descent from her. Were you by any chance meaning to post in the Dior thread?

And Galin, belated thanks for the birthday wishes!

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

cellurdur, I'd address your points and all that, but... there's this:

This entire thread has been about Mithrellas and the implications of Imrahil's possible descent from her. Were you by any chance meaning to post in the Dior thread?

And Galin, belated thanks for the birthday wishes!

Unless someone moved my post I am sure my post WAS IN the Dior thread. It seems you accidentally quoted my Dior post in this thread.

Other points that support my argument is that Turin, Tuor and Aragorn were all raised amongst elves. It's true they had the necessary genes to resemble Elves, but Men resembling elves is more than just genes. The Numenorean's at their zenith became virtually indistinguishable from Elves and Tolkien put this down to untainted land of Numenor and the Elvish lifestyle they adapted too.

I would imagine it's a very similar, but to far lesser extent case with Imrahil. Dol Amroth recently had Elves live there. They more than anyone else in Gondor probably still adhere to Elvish way of life. Hence why Imrahil has such a close resemblance to an Elf, but Boromir and Faramir do not.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Unless someone moved my post I am sure my post WAS IN the Dior thread. It seems you accidentally quoted my Dior post in this thread.

It's the post I was replying to- #23 in this thread. So I'm not sure what's happened.