What Powered The Three?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Regarding the Three Rings, and presumably the Seven and the Nine, some portion of their makers' essence would have been instilled into their creations. Some of Sauron's power would have been placed in the Seven and the Nine as he assisted in their creation. Some of the power of Celebrimbor and his smiths would have been placed in the Three. But the power of the Three to act may have been drawn from other sources. Pitchwife discusses their nature above and their links to the elements, air, water and fire. Their power may come from those elements to some extent.

It was said Feanor captured the light of the two trees when imbuing the Silmarils; certainly, a part of him went into his ultimate creation, but the act - or the art, really - of collecting the essence of a thing to create another is most likely what occurred when his grandson, Celebrimbor, and the other Hollin smiths created the three. If you actually consider the Silmarils from an essential standpoint, it is stated that at the end of the world Feanor will release the light trapped in his gems and with their light Yavanna will revive the Two Trees - such is the efficacy of Elvish craft.

I think the logical conclusion is that the scion of the Feanorions would imbue his great art in the same manner as his ancestor, so that the three elements air, fire and water (the earth being beneath the haughty Elves and a place fit for only dwarves ) were imbued into the rings so that the preservative powers of each element was present in an essential manner.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Has anyone ever considered the nature and intricacy of Sauron's plot? He spent decades or centuries instructing the Elves of Hollin and assisting them in the making of the Great Rings, with the intent to create the One in order to dominate the bearers of the various Rings and their people.

But even with Sauron's input, the Three remained unsullied by his black hand. Proof of this is that Sauron never gained dominion over them (while he wielded the One), and it seems the Dark Lord never quite figured out where they were. He may have guessed but it doesn't appear he knew for sure.

The plot itself was quite intricate, but for the greater part of its intent, it was a failure. Only Man succumbed to the lure of the Rings. It failed against the Elves utterly, and the success against the dwarves was so limited that Sauron ended up taking back the ones not eaten up by dragons.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

(the earth being beneath the haughty Elves and a place fit for only dwarves )

Haven't we sufficiently established that the Elves didn't consider the earth to figuratively be beneath them? On a more serious note, surely the Classical Elements of the Greek philosophers would have been disdained by Professor Tolkien, who preferred his ancient sources Germanic. The air/water/fire thing is difficult to ignore, however. I wonder how important he thought it was.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Proof of this is that Sauron never gained dominion over them (while he wielded the One)

I always thought that the reason for that was simply because the bearers of the Three literally took them off their hands when they heard Sauron incanting the Ring-inscription as he placed the One upon his finger.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The plot itself was quite intricate, but for the greater part of its intent, it was a failure. Only Man succumbed to the lure of the Rings. It failed against the Elves utterly, and the success against the dwarves was so limited that Sauron ended up taking back the ones not eaten up by dragons.

Which was characteristic of Sauron the whole way through: "he that strikes the first blow, if he strikes it hard enough, may need to strike no more. [...] Wise fool."

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Zigur

On a more serious note, surely the Classical Elements of the Greek philosophers would have been disdained by Professor Tolkien, who preferred his ancient sources Germanic.

I'm not aware of any evidence that Tolkien "disdained" Classical Greek (or Roman) culture or literature. That he was more interested in other traditions (not only Germanic but also Celtic and Finnish), even that he thought those traditions were unfairly neglected in favour of the Classics, does not imply disdain.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not aware of any evidence that Tolkien "disdained" Classical Greek (or Roman) culture or literature. That he was more interested in other traditions (not only Germanic but also Celtic and Finnish), even that he thought those traditions were unfairly neglected in favour of the Classics, does not imply disdain.

I just realised I shouldn't have said "On a more serious note" because I was actually attempting to be facetious. Whoops.

[Ivriniel]

@Pitchwife

Yes, I think talk about Ringlore works better with terms such as "The Will of Galadriel was great, and her Fea that of the Line of the blending of the three kindreds of Elves and so, Nenya, Ring of Water was great to wield in her hands"....c.f. 'her fea+Ring threshold of power".....

I think ur technological metaphor though certainly is part of a two-fold method Sauron wielded.

@Belegon

Yes. I think the same. Preservation, and by a kind of unmarring of Middle Earth, or to extend what Celebrimbor must have discerned about Valinor through having, himself, probably seen a Silmaril (or two) in the War of Wrath. Certainly, coming from Feanor's line, who did somehow bring the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils, he must have been inspired in a way like his father was. He also made the Elessar (well, he 'did' in one of two renditions of the mythology). The Elessar was (apparently) generally, the progenitor to the Three in its preservation functions.

@Aiwendil

Hi there Aiwendil. I agree. I'm not sure it was disdain. Rather a move to a deeper or more personal mythology of his own, where he was initially more enamored of the classics.

@Mithadan

Hello Mithadan, great to see you I suspect you've tapped into something. The same 'process' of the imbuing of Silima with the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils is somehow a clue about Ringlore (at least Ringlore a-la Celebrimor o Eregion). And it has been my understanding that Lore of Artifacts in Middle Earth did require that a maker imbue an item with some of his/her essence. Melian, even in taking Elvish (kind of) 'body' an annexing Doriath imbued her power, with some irreversibility. I haven't looked up a quote, but I recall one. Likewise, Melkor in his various makings.

About Sauron's 'plot' as Annatar.....

@Morthoron

Hey there Mo_rhthoron great to see you here. Hope you have been well, and what must I write to get a blast (to make my day) hahaha kind regards....

I absolutely *love* the snippets of the Second Making with the breaking of the Earth by Morgoth after his return through the Doors of Night. And the spilling of the light of the Silmarils on Ezellohar.

Implications are that the light is indeed, as Mithadan states, something about Ea or Arda Unmarred, and linked to Eru in his Music.

Although Vilya is the Ring of Air (Elrond, and excuse my error upstream. I was expecting a Balrog Ski trip on the Ford of Bruinen, but with an (air) dinge hahaha) we have the author implying somehow that the Three had the Elements implicated.

@Zigur

Hello Zigur, great to see you also. Yes, makes sense. I have wondered much the same.

I've been wondering for a long time, if the innate vulnerability was perhaps, more about ....

[Ivriniel]

@All

Osanwe

We know from Tolkien's comments (thank you Mithadan for the materials) that Osanwe could be shut off, or denied, by will, and that an Elf could deny a Vala. (at least that's how I read it, in that fear elicits closure to another).

Anyhooz - the relevance.

I've been wondering if the vulnerability was a Ringlore 'Osanwe' perversion that Sauron imbued into the process of Rings, and that the major vulnerability was that Sauron could

DISCERN

An Elf bearing a Ring - ergo - strategic - vulnerability. He could deploy war forces where he knew the Ring keeper hadn't placed defences. Stuff like that. Tolkien cites similar concepts about the Stones and 'who could spy on whom' with the Master Stone being able to discern lesser Stones, without the viewer necessarily knowing.

Recall, he was in WWI and II where he grew up understanding that war outcomes were based on capacity to intercept coded messages during that time of proliferation of encryptions.

Thus - the "will" aspect of his "imbuing" needed to -- exceed that of the 'Osanwe' sort of 'thing' he devised in The Ring spell

Anyone care to comment?

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I always thought that the reason for that was simply because the bearers of the Three literally took them off their hands when they heard Sauron incanting the Ring-inscription as he placed the One upon his finger.

Yeah, that's the best take on that. Sauron had no hand in the creation of the Three and did thus have no clue what exactly Celebrimbor did with them. Presumably the guy had some intriguing ideas how to expand on Annatar's general 'Ring of Power' concept Sauron himself never thought about.

Sauron certainly would have figured out what the Three could do and how to use them for his own ends but nothing came of that when Celebrimbor literally took of the Three - and I actually think he literally wore the Three on his fingers when he heard Sauron speak/think those words about the purpose of the One Ring. In his hubris Celebrimbor could easily have intended to use the Three all for himself to make his Eregion the greatest paradise (and himself the most powerful Noldo) this side of the ocean.

Whether the Three - or the Rings of Power aside from the One Ring - had any power source in a conventional sense I don't know. But I doubt it. They weren't engines, after all. Even in the case of the One I'd not say that Sauron had to put parts of himself in there to keep the thing working but rather that this was an integral part of his wish/spell to control both the other rings and their bearers.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We know that Gil-Galad gave Narya to Cirdan when he marched ioff to the Last Alliance, presumably since there was no point in bringing it along, he couldn't wear it. I think it highly likely that Elrond similarly stashed Vilya at Rivendell.

The Third Age was different, since the One was lost.

[cellurdur]

The rings enhanced the powers of the wielder and were used to preserve things. I would say that with all sub-creation a some part of Celebrimbor's own essence did go int the three. It's the case for all sub-creation in Tolkien.

I also believe just like how Celebrimbor (possibly) tapped into the power of the sun for the Elessar, he additionally tapped into some of the raw materials whether it be light, earth or water as a source of power from the rings.

What I think is controversial is that despite what Elrond says, I believe Celebrimbor in addition tapped into some small part of Morgoth's power and this is why they were linked to the One.

Preserving the world and stopping change, in my opinion was not a completely good act and went contrary to the nature.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The rings enhanced the powers of the wielder and were used to preserve things. I would say that with all sub-creation a some part of Celebrimbor's own essence did go int the three. It's the case for all sub-creation in Tolkien.

I also believe just like how Celebrimbor (possibly) tapped into the power of the sun for the Elessar, he additionally tapped into some of the raw materials whether it be light, earth or water as a source of power from the rings.

What I think is controversial is that despite what Elrond says, I believe Celebrimbor in addition tapped into some small part of Morgoth's power and this is why they were linked to the One.

Preserving the world and stopping change, in my opinion was not a completely good act and went contrary to the nature.

I guess Celebrimbor could not go behind the concept 'Rings of Power' in his efforts. The basic spells/magics/forging techniques/whatever would have been the same in all the Rings of Power. The Three would be the least corrupt because Celebrimbor focused exclusively on his own Elvish preservation agenda and not on other things Sauron might also have put into the other rings.

Whether Elves (or Men) can put parts of themselves into their sub-creations in any real sense (and not just in metaphorical sense - like, say, 'he put his heart into his work') the way the Valar/Maiar could is completely unclear. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I guess Celebrimbor could not go behind the concept 'Rings of Power' in his efforts. The basic spells/magics/forging techniques/whatever would have been the same in all the Rings of Power. The Three would be the least corrupt because Celebrimbor focused exclusively on his own Elvish preservation agenda and not on other things Sauron might also have put into the other rings.

Whether Elves (or Men) can put parts of themselves into their sub-creations in any real sense (and not just in metaphorical sense - like, say, 'he put his heart into his work') the way the Valar/Maiar could is completely unclear. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

It seems like this is something that Men can't do except the ones with Elvish blood, but we have seen the Pukel men and Eol do similar.