The effect of the Great Rings upon Men

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think it's pretty clear that the Nazgul were permanently invisible, including their "original" clothing/armor etc (which Frodo could perceive on Weathertop and at the Ford); the black cloaks (donned of course after "fading" and Sauron's reclamation of their Rings) gave visibility to their forms which were unseen but not incorporeal.

(In an early, rejected draft for the scene at Maggot's house, T appears to be saying that if one put on the Ring and then picked up an object, that object would remain visible since it wasn't in the ringbearer's possession when he flipped the "engage invisibility" switch.)

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think it's pretty clear that the Nazgul were permanently invisible, including their "original" clothing/armor etc (which Frodo could perceive on Weathertop and at the Ford); the black cloaks (donned of course after "fading" and Sauron's reclamation of their Rings) gave visibility to their forms which were unseen but not incorporeal.

I'm not sure we have to interpret Frodo's perceptions of the Nazgûl as 'the literal truth'. Granted, during the writing of 'The Lord of the Rings' Tolkien might perhaps envisioned the Ringwraiths as 'invisible men' but Frodo's perception could just as well be remnants of the self-images of the Nazgûl how they saw themselves or wanted to be seen by those who could perceive them as they were.

Sort of similar to the images and impression faded Elves whose bodies had been completely consumed would eventually be able to project to those mortals they would want to come into contact with. Such self-images of the Ringwraiths would, of course, also include clothes, crowns, and whatever else they thought had been important to them in life.

But this doesn't necessarily mean all that stuff was actually *there*.

It is quite clear that the Nazgûl could be harmed by conventional human weaponry but how exactly that worked is unclear. One guesses that part of that has to do with them continuing to interact with 'the physical world' but another great part have to to with the magic imbued in Merry's blade as well as the psychological aspect of the whole thing. The witch-king most likely did really think getting hit by a sword in the middle of his 'face' should get him killed. And thus it did. Or rather it greatly weakened him.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I'm not sure we have to interpret Frodo's perceptions of the Nazgûl as 'the literal truth'. Granted, during the writing of 'The Lord of the Rings' Tolkien might perhaps envisioned the Ringwraiths as 'invisible men' but Frodo's perception could just as well be remnants of the self-images of the Nazgûl how they saw themselves or wanted to be seen by those who could perceive them as they were.

Sort of similar to the images and impression faded Elves whose bodies had been completely consumed would eventually be able to project to those mortals they would want to come into contact with. Such self-images of the Ringwraiths would, of course, also include clothes, crowns, and whatever else they thought had been important to them in life.

But this doesn't necessarily mean all that stuff was actually *there*.

It is quite clear that the Nazgûl could be harmed by conventional human weaponry but how exactly that worked is unclear. One guesses that part of that has to do with them continuing to interact with 'the physical world' but another great part have to to with the magic imbued in Merry's blade as well as the psychological aspect of the whole thing. The witch-king most likely did really think getting hit by a sword in the middle of his 'face' should get him killed. And thus it did. Or rather it greatly weakened him.

I am not sure the witch-king did think being hit by a normal blade would kill him.

I think we have to look back at weathertop to the reaction of the Nazgul when Frodo draws his blade. Two of the Nazgul actually stop and don't make a move for him. Only the Witch King has the courage to still go forward.

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

I think it very likely Éowyn had an ordinary sword.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it very likely Éowyn had an ordinary sword.

Yes, but the damage was done after Merry had already stabbed him with what appears to be a deadly blow.

But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it — save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.

Eowyn's blow may have sped up his death, but I believe it was only because of Merry's initial stab which in time would have proven fatal anyway. Much like had Elrond not healed Frodo the Witch King's stab would have proven fatal.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure the witch-king did think being hit by a normal blade would kill him.

I think we have to look back at weathertop to the reaction of the Nazgul when Frodo draws his blade. Two of the Nazgul actually stop and don't make a move for him. Only the Witch King has the courage to still go forward.

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

Well, even Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth himself could be harmed by 'normal weapons' if we accept that Elvish (or dwarfish) weapons were also, in a sense, 'normal'.

They were, after all, made by the Eruhíni and not the Valar or Maiar.

Nobody would be claiming weapons like Ringil, Narsil, Aeglos, Glamdring, etc. are playing in the same league as Éowyn's steel, but they would, most likely, not be in the same categories as weapons/artifacts created by the Valar/Maiar.

But we don't really know what the strength of those special weapons was when they were used against a Balrog, Sauron, or a Nazgûl. The touch/words of the Nazgûl (and Sauron) could destroy steel but does this in itself prove that these creatures are also impervious to common steel?

We don't know that. I'm pretty sure Merry's Dúnadan blade dealt the Witch-king a terrible wound, but the killing blow came from Éowyn's sword - or rather the blow who destroy his shape/appearance until such time as Sauron would restore him/he would recover.

It is not just the letter footnote which suggests the Witch-king survived it is also the curious phrasing JRRT uses when he describes that the cry of the Witch-king would never be heard again in that age - which was essentially nearly over. If he had been completely destroyed at this point (or the authors of the Red Book had believed he was dead) then one would expect them to say something like 'his cry was never heard on this earth again'.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Well, even Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth himself could be harmed by 'normal weapons' if we accept that Elvish (or dwarfish) weapons were also, in a sense, 'normal'.

They were, after all, made by the Eruhíni and not the Valar or Maiar.

Nobody would be claiming weapons like Ringil, Narsil, Aeglos, Glamdring, etc. are playing in the same league as Éowyn's steel, but they would, most likely, not be in the same categories as weapons/artifacts created by the Valar/Maiar.

But we don't really know what the strength of those special weapons was when they were used against a Balrog, Sauron, or a Nazgûl. The touch/words of the Nazgûl (and Sauron) could destroy steel but does this in itself prove that these creatures are also impervious to common steel?

I would say so. All those weapons you mentioned were forged in the first age. For comparison look at how Sting is able to slice through Shelob's web, but even the blade from the Barrow Downs can't. Another example is that a strong man like Boromir notches his blade striking a cave troll, but Frodo is able to pierce him with Sting.

I doubt Eowyn was wielding a sword even comparable to Boromir's and we see a big difference between his sword and Anduril or Sting.

We don't know that. I'm pretty sure Merry's Dúnadan blade dealt the Witch-king a terrible wound, but the killing blow came from Éowyn's sword - or rather the blow who destroy his shape/appearance until such time as Sauron would restore him/he would recover.

I would agree with this in the same way, that if second Nazgul stabbed Frodo in the head, after the Witch King had already pierced him, then the second Nazgul would have delivered the killing blow. However, that does not mean Merry's blow would not eventually have left the Witch King impotent.

When we take into consideration his other letter, unfortunately I don't remember which one, where he says if at Weathertop Sam had given a glancing blow to a Nazgul they would have fallen down.

Just the appearance of these blades is enough to stop two Nazgul in their tracks.

Further we can't forget that Aragorn tells us that all blades that pierce the Witch King break. This implies the Witch King has been stabbed a few times before and it has been noted that the blades have vanished and not killed him.

It is not just the letter footnote which suggests the Witch-king survived it is also the curious phrasing JRRT uses when he describes that the cry of the Witch-king would never be heard again in that age - which was essentially nearly over. If he had been completely destroyed at this point (or the authors of the Red Book had believed he was dead) then one would expect them to say something like 'his cry was never heard on this earth again'.

You have a point, but Tolkien could have been using biblical language. Being a devout Catholic he would be aware of the times the Bible used phrases like UNTIL, which implies that the something changes at a certain point, but it is not the case.

However, I agree with you there is an implication the Witch King might come back, but surely the destruction of the One would have ended any possibility of that.