Treebeard and the One Ring

[Marwhini]

On another note...

What is up with the theme of:

What would happen if X got the Ruling Ring?

Is this something people are going to apply to every inhabitant of Arda?

Also.... The point I made in the thread regarding the Metaphysics of Middle-earth should make this question trivial to answer for any person once you have an Operational Metaphysics (and, as Tolkien also sought a Theology, that should not be neglected).

From these two Foundations come every aspect of Middle-earth, including HOW the One Ring operates, and WHAT it does beyond the vague descriptions given by Tolkien.

For instance.... How does one make Baryonic Matter "invisible?"

There are actually answers for that question that deal with actual Physics, and with Physics that would exist within Middle-earth where various forms of Property Dualism are True that are not True in our Universe; creating a bit of a Paradox of "Middle-earth is our Earth" - obviously it isn't, but the intent is that it is.

Meaning that Arda needs to hew as closely as possible to the Physics, Chemistry, and Biology of our world/universe, while having some Thing (something: Some Property or Properties) that allows what we perceive as "Magic" to exist within Arda. Yet recall that Tolkien tended to think of "Magic" as being "occult," or "necromantic," and that what the Elves and Valar did, that we call "Magic" was just a Natural part of their being (and many Humans also produced abilities we think of as "Magic" when they were properly attuned to the world).

Figure out what that "Thing" (property or Properties) is, and you have your answer to most questions regarding Middle-earth.

There does remain only some questions of Psychology or qualities of different characters, places, or things within Arda at that point. But this is no different than our Universe (we have most of the underlying Metaphysics in our Universe - we have just not yet completely assembled the resulting Physics from them).


Note:

As far as the One Ring goes.... That was a pretty original leap of imagination to question about Fangorn or the Ents getting ahold of it.

They are about the least "Motivated" to do harm, or to seek Power in Middle-earth, yet would likely be the most dangerous to have the One Ring in Middle-earth as well.

They, of all creatures save the Elves, seem to have their "Morgoth-Element" most under control, even though they likely possess a substantial amount of that Element within each of them (compared to Elves).



MB

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

On another note...

What is up with the theme of:

What would happen if X got the Ruling Ring?

Is this something people are going to apply to every inhabitant of Arda?

Also.... The point I made in the thread regarding the Metaphysics of Middle-earth should make this question trivial to answer for any person once you have an Operational Metaphysics (and, as Tolkien also sought a Theology, that should not be neglected).

From these two Foundations come every aspect of Middle-earth, including HOW the One Ring operates, and WHAT it does beyond the vague descriptions given by Tolkien.

For instance.... How does one make Baryonic Matter "invisible?"

There are actually answers for that question that deal with actual Physics, and with Physics that would exist within Middle-earth where various forms of Property Dualism are True that are not True in our Universe; creating a bit of a Paradox of "Middle-earth is our Earth" - obviously it isn't, but the intent is that it is.

Meaning that Arda needs to hew as closely as possible to the Physics, Chemistry, and Biology of our world/universe, while having some Thing (something: Some Property or Properties) that allows what we perceive as "Magic" to exist within Arda. Yet recall that Tolkien tended to think of "Magic" as being "occult," or "necromantic," and that what the Elves and Valar did, that we call "Magic" was just a Natural part of their being (and many Humans also produced abilities we think of as "Magic" when they were properly attuned to the world).

Figure out what that "Thing" (property or Properties) is, and you have your answer to most questions regarding Middle-earth.

There does remain only some questions of Psychology or qualities of different characters, places, or things within Arda at that point. But this is no different than our Universe (we have most of the underlying Metaphysics in our Universe - we have just not yet completely assembled the resulting Physics from them).


Note:

As far as the One Ring goes.... That was a pretty original leap of imagination to question about Fangorn or the Ents getting ahold of it.

They are about the least "Motivated" to do harm, or to seek Power in Middle-earth, yet would likely be the most dangerous to have the One Ring in Middle-earth as well.

They, of all creatures save the Elves, seem to have their "Morgoth-Element" most under control, even though they likely possess a substantial amount of that Element within each of them (compared to Elves).



MB

I guess the intrigue comes from the fact Treebeard like the Balrog, IMHO might be one of the individuals of ME who might encounter the ring and not necessarily become it's thrall. I suppose when the fellowship broke at Amon Hen, there is a scenario where Frodo could have been captured as Merry and Pippin were and the ring to have come to Fangorn.

[Mithadan]

I will act like the Elves and say neither yea nor nay.

One the one hand, the Ents, and Fangorn in particular, seem to be very self-interested. He does not care much for the world outside Fangorn because the world does not care much for the Ents. This seems to be a favorable basis for the Ring to take root and influence Treebeard to take it up if it became available.

On the other hand, Treebeard reminds me of Bombadil. He might be unconcerned with the possibility of domination of lands and peoples beyond his borders. No, I am not saying that it would have no apparent effect upon him, as old Tom demonstrated. Rather, that it would not be attractive to him and his tree-ish personality.

On the other hand... can we have a third hand?

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skytree

I guess the intrigue comes from the fact Treebeard like the Balrog, IMHO might be one of the individuals of ME who might encounter the ring and not necessarily become it's thrall. I suppose when the fellowship broke at Amon Hen, there is a scenario where Frodo could have been captured as Merry and Pippin were and the ring to have come to Fangorn.

If we apply the Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics to Middle-earth, then absolutely there is a scenario where Frodo is captured at Amon Hen, instead of Merry and Pippin. But I have suspicions about the application of, or operations of Quantum Mechanics in Middle-earth being completely identical to our own. I could write a huge screed on it if someone wanted.

But in a purely fictional-fiction within the story of The Lord of the Rings, exploring a "what if," this remains the same case... That is the One Ring came to Fangorn/Treebeard, he would be loath to have anything to do with it. I don't think he would be "immune" to it as such. It is more that he, and the other Ents, are so cautious about everything that they would be sure to keep it at a great distance until they had sorted out what to do about it (and being the product of the "World of Men" they would seek out a Man, probably Gandalf - although he's not really a "man" - to inquire as to what should be done about this very dangerous object).

Although I don't think the Balrog (or Ents) would remain "immune" to the effects of the One Ring. I just think it (the Balrog) would be more likely to understand its value to Sauron, and thus return it to him.

As technically the Balrogs were subservient to Sauron... At least as I argue.

MB

[denethorthefirst]

Of course Treebeard would be tempted by the ring and after a while become enslaved to it. Why shouldnt that be the case? He is a living being with wishes and desires: he longs for the time of the first age, he misses the forests and wants to protect fangorn, he misses the Entwives and fears for the survival of his race. The ring would be able to exploit these fears and desires. Remember the delusions of grandeur Sam experienced when he whore the ring: he would turn Mordor into a garden, etc. Treebeard would probably experience something similar and i dont think that he would be able to resist. Maybe he would have the wisdom of Gandalf and reject the ring or remove its presence before it can corrupt him, but Treebeard doesnt seem to know all that much about Ring-Lore and the Politics of Middle-Earth so it could be that he wouldnt recognize the danger. Treebeard is not all knowing and has a rather limited perspective regarding Middle-Earth.

Regarding the Balrog: in my opinion he is not subservient to Sauron and probably does not accept his "Authority" in any way, shape or form. Why would he? From the Balrogs perspective Sauron is probably a Traitor and Usurper. That doesnt mean that the Balrog wouldnt be tempted by the one ring if he found it, but i dont think its likely that he would return it to Sauron.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Of course Treebeard would be tempted by the ring and after a while become enslaved to it. Why shouldnt that be the case? He is a living being with wishes and desires: he longs for the time of the first age, he misses the forests and wants to protect fangorn, he misses the Entwives and fears for the survival of his race. The ring would be able to exploit these fears and desires. Remember the delusions of grandeur Sam experienced when he whore the ring: he would turn Mordor into a garden, etc. Treebeard would probably experience something similar and i dont think that he would be able to resist. Maybe he would have the wisdom of Gandalf and reject the ring or remove its presence before it can corrupt him, but Treebeard doesnt seem to know all that much about Ring-Lore and the Politics of Middle-Earth so it could be that he wouldnt recognize the danger. Treebeard is not all knowing and has a rather limited perspective regarding Middle-Earth.

Regarding the Balrog: in my opinion he is not subservient to Sauron and probably does not accept his "Authority" in any way, shape or form. Why would he? From the Balrogs perspective Sauron is probably a Traitor and Usurper. That doesnt mean that the Balrog wouldnt be tempted by the one ring if he found it, but i dont think its likely that he would return it to Sauron.

Sam isn't an Ent.

We do not know by what Mechanism the One Ring produces the effects it produces.

Gandalf knew enough to leave the Ring alone.

As did Galadriel.

As did a lowly Man, Faramir, who was in a position to take it easily, yet said: "Not were it laying by the side of the road" would I use any device of The Enemy.

And Treebeard is a living thing who is approaching Millions of years older than even Galadriel, to say nothing of Faramir.

While he obviously has desires.... He also is very, very patient, and not at all likely to be picking up strange objects without some very pressing reason. Fangorn only picked up Merry and Pippin because he thought they were Orcs, and he had a rather long time to have gathered an opinion about Orcs, and what to do about them.

So given his outright hesitancy to act without precaution and consideration, it isn't likely he is going to pick up some alien object lying about, when he knows very well who Sauron is, even if he did not pay him much heed at that moment; given, as he says, no one, save Gandalf, or Saruman, had paid him much heed.

That does not say that he was ignorant. It only says that "I" [Treebeard] " am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me: nobody cares for the woods as I care for them, not even Elves nowadays."

As for being aware of Sauron and the One Ring, the latest that the Entwives could have been occupying Rhovanion of the "Lands to the East" was the middle to end of the Second Age, after which Sauron blasted the lands of Rhovanion in his War against the Elves.

And Tolkien says that in the Last Alliance all creatures fought, even on both sides (save for the Elves), including the beasts and birds. Ents happen to be among the Children of Ilúvatar. They would have been represented at the Last Alliance.

And it would be very surprising if Fangorn was not either among them, or at the very least aware of what was going on, and had discussed for days, weeks, months, or even years on end if the Ents should even have participated, and whom (the "whom" would likely be Treebeard himself, among others) should participate.

Given the length of their discussions on things being rather thorough and complete....

I'd find it rather difficult to believe that Treebeard/Fangorn (and the rest of the Ents) would not be rather keenly aware of the Greatest living Tree-slayer in Middle-earth of the Second and Third Ages, as well as the fact that he dabbled more than a little bit in magic rings.

So I continue to doubt that Treebeard would have anything to do with it.

The One Ring is not omnipotent, only very dangerous. If wary men have the power to reject it, then so too would the most wary, guarded, and cautious conscious being in all of Middle-earth likely have the power to reject it.

And it isn't likely that Fangorn is going to worry about picking up jewelry of any type, magical or no. He doesn't even seem to wear clothes.

MB

[denethorthefirst]

We are not in disagreement. No matter how isolationist Treebeard has become by the end of the third age, i think it would be very strange if he wouldnt know about Mordor, Gondor, etc., the political "Big Picture" so to speak. I also think its likely that he fought in the War of the last Alliance. If the Ring was presented to him or he came across it, he would probably reject it at first, even if he didnt know about its origin ... but: if the Ring remained in Fangorn, if for example Treebeard agreed to watch over it for a while, or if an Orc from Sarumans Gang captured the Ring from Frodo, escaped to Fangorn and got killed by an Ent, than i think its very likely that the Ring would, eventually, corrupt Treebeard over time and enslave him, it is only a matter of time.