Where do elves get metal?

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Although I agree with you overarching point this example is very odd. The predator-prey relationship between Men/Hobbit etc and Orcs is not explicitly laid out that's true but most probably because none existed. Sure the Orcs are not averse to human flesh if given the chance but to suggest that there should be a finely balanced eco-system where Orcs as the top predators are prowling at the outskirts of society with humans as their preferred prey is preposterous I must say. Seems like their mainstay was agricultural products such as bread, just like it was for Men.

And the Trolls, as described in the Hobbit... they don't really fit in to the latter, more realistic Middle Earth at all, do they? Seems like they come straight out of a Fairy Tale without any regard for a consistent metaphysical of teleological system. Besides, it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them.

That Orcs depended upon agricultural products means they had to get them somewhere.

If they grew them themselves, then they needed a lot of land on which to do so. While Mordor had the fertile lands of Nurn to feed them, this is not the case for the Hithaeglir.

I bring this up because it was things exactly like this with which Tolkien struggled in his later days, looking specifically for the rules by which the world operated (for which this would be one).

And Orcs do not need to be capturing and eating people to make them predators. That isn't what I meant by that relationship.

Their relationship with all of civilization is that of a predator, who preys upon "Civilization" itself (ruining it, in some fashion).

The manner in which it "Ruins" civilization is secondary.

For instance: Cuckoo Birds have the same Predator:Prey relationship as do raptors like Hawks, Owls, and Eagles with their Prey.

Except the Cuckoo Bird isn't preying upon the other birds to eat them. It is preying upon them to raise their young.

The Cuckoo isn't exactly what you would call a "Parasite" either. But Parasites tend to have similar relationships in populations as do Predator:Prey populations.

And the Orcs fit into a similar relationship with Elves, Hobbits, and Men. They Prey upon the civilization itself, whether taking time to replace things simply destroyed outright, or in replacing things stolen, or people killed, or kidnapped.

Tolkien did not want Middle-earth to be simply a "Fairy Tale."

At the end (from the 1950s onward), he was looking specifically for the "underlying postulates" that formed a "coherent theological and metaphysical system." (p. x of Morgoth's Ring). Those words imply that he needed things to have an explanation for How they worked, and not just that they existed within Middle-earth. They needed a reason to explain their existence, and a means by which they operated (a Metaphysical Explanation).

MB

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

That Orcs depended upon agricultural products means they had to get them somewhere.

If they grew them themselves, then they needed a lot of land on which to do so. While Mordor had the fertile lands of Nurn to feed them, this is not the case for the Hithaeglir.

I bring this up because it was things exactly like this with which Tolkien struggled in his later days, looking specifically for the rules by which the world operated (for which this would be one).

And Orcs do not need to be capturing and eating people to make them predators. That isn't what I meant by that relationship.

Their relationship with all of civilization is that of a predator, who preys upon "Civilization" itself (ruining it, in some fashion).

The manner in which it "Ruins" civilization is secondary.

For instance: Cuckoo Birds have the same Predator:Prey relationship as do raptors like Hawks, Owls, and Eagles with their Prey.

Except the Cuckoo Bird isn't preying upon the other birds to eat them. It is preying upon them to raise their young.

The Cuckoo isn't exactly what you would call a "Parasite" either. But Parasites tend to have similar relationships in populations as do Predator:Prey populations.

Actually cuckoos *are* generally considered to be parasites. They practise a nesting strategy known as "brood parasitism", with victim species being the "hosts".

Anyway, what is the "similar relationship"? Do you mean the fact that ultimately both predators and parasites are dependant on their victims and thus can't afford to wipe them out? Or what?

And the Orcs fit into a similar relationship with Elves, Hobbits, and Men. They Prey upon the civilization itself, whether taking time to replace things simply destroyed outright, or in replacing things stolen, or people killed, or kidnapped.

So your point is that Orcs subsist *entirely* by plundering other species? Is there a source for that?