Aragorn's assertiveness

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Leaf

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that book-Aragorn is some kind of zealot, or an aspirating tyrant. He's just as overbearing as the concept of absolute monarchy is in itself!

As a side point, but an important one I think, the Gondorian monarchy (and by association the Arnorian as well) was not an absolute one. Tolkien speaks to this in one of the HOME essays. I will find it and post the relevant contents this evening.

He's willing to bow his own claim to the rules of the golden Hall and in turn agrees (reluctantly) to leave his sword (the very symbol of his kingship) in front of the door.

That was a complex situation. I don't know if Tolkien himself had developed all the ultimate complexities at the time of writing. Rohan existed because of the gift of the Steward who ruled until the King returned. Theoretically, that gift could be revoked by the returned King. Aragorn was put in an awkward situation because he was asked (unknowingly on the part of the askers, it is true) to diminish his status and acknowledge the supremacy of the King of Rohan within the bounds of Rohan. Those bounds, however, could still be considered provisional as they had not been confirmed by the King. Acknowledging the claim of the King of Rohan could diminish the legal standing of the King of Gondor should he decide to revoke the gift of Calenardhon.

While Aragorn acted temperamentally, it may have been for show.

I think Aragorn views his claims as a mixture of privilege and duty. And he's mature enough to act accordingly.

I agree with this.

[Marwhini]

Aragorn could be considered a pretty Classist Character, though.

Much of what he does in the Book is to illustrate Natural Rights, and people's "Sticking to their Station" (knowing their place).

That would likely not fly well with modern audiences.

Which is a pity, as it is a missed opportunity to examine that issue in a more direct fashion.

MB

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by me

I will find it and post the relevant contents this evening.

I thought the reference was in The Peoples of Middle-earth and spent quite a lot of time trying to find it, sudden inspiration struck that it might be in the Letters and my questing was rewarded.

Originally Posted by Letter 244

A Numenorean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say.

So the Kings of Gondor ruled by virtue of and through ancient custom that enabled and also bound the King within certain limits, much like the kings of the Dark Age in the Western World on Earth, which is not surprising given that was Tolkien's inspiration.

I am currently thumbing through the first couple chapters where Aragorn appears of Fellowship just to see if there are any noteworthy moments of "claiming" that happen in these chapters. I don't think that there will be much useful for this topic in these chapters.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I am currently thumbing through the first couple chapters where Aragorn appears of Fellowship just to see if there are any noteworthy moments of "claiming" that happen in these chapters. I don't think that there will be much useful for this topic in these chapters.

I did the same and here are some related passages I could dig up.

There's the poem in Gandalf's letter to Frodo in the chapter Strider:

Originally Posted by Strider

[...]Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

Aragorn's explanation

Originally Posted by Strider

'But I am Aragorn, and those verses go with that name.' He drew out his sword, and they saw that the blade was indeed broken a foot below the hilt. 'Not much use is it, Sam?' said Strider. 'But the time is near when it shall be forged anew.'

We get an idea of Aragorn's royal descendancy and his intentions from the very beginning. Then there's a litte bit in the Flight to the Ford:

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford

'Where did you learn such tales, if all the land is empty and forgetful?' asked Peregrin. 'The birds and beasts do not tell tales of that sort.' 'The heirs of Elendil do not forget all things past,' said Strider; 'and many more things than I can tell are remembered in Rivendell.'

Finally Aragorn's role and background gets explained in detail in The Council of Elrond:

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'And here in the house of Elrond more shall be made clear to you,' said Aragorn, standing up. He cast his sword upon the table that stood before Elrond, and the blade was in two pieces. 'Here is the Sword that was Broken!' he said. 'And who are you, and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?' asked Boromir, looking in wonder at the lean face of the Ranger and his weather-stained cloak. 'He is Aragorn son of Arathorn,' said Elrond; 'and he is descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil’s son of Minas Ithil. He is the Chief of the Dúnedain in the North, and few are now left of that folk.'

Aragorn's response to Boromir

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'[...]For the Sword that was Broken is the Sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he fell. It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur’s Bane, was found. Now you have seen the sword that you have sought, what would you ask? Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

Aragorn smiled at him; then he turned to Boromir again 'For my part I forgive your doubt,' he said. 'Little do I resemble the figures of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty in the halls of Denethor. I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself.[...]'

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

[...]'But now the world is changing once again. A new hour comes. Isildur’s Bane is found. Battle is at hand. The Sword shall be reforged. I will come to Minas Tirith.'

In conclusion it seems to me that Tolkien was firstly trying to establish the legitimacy of Aragorn's claims. After that Aragorn gets to be more assertive about them.

[Kuruharan]

The only other noteworthy moment in those chapters that I will mention is when Aragorn has finished his description of the story of Beren and Luthien and discusses their descendants the text is rich with foreshadowing.

As Strider was speaking they watched his strange eager face, dimly lit in the red glow of the wood-fire. His eyes shone, and his voice was rich and deep.
-A Knife in the Dark

[Faramir Jones]

It's nice to see how this thread has progressed since my last post...

I'd like to make a couple of points. First, thanks for posting those quotes, Leaf; but I feel you left an important one out. It is the exchange between Boromir and Aragorn at the end of the Council of Elrond, which I think is very revealing. Boromir said that Aragon's sword may stem the tide, 'if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men'. Aragorn's response is quite low key: 'Who can tell? But we will put it to the test one day'.

It is clear from this that Boromir accepted Aragorn's descent, but is waiting to see if he has any of the qualities of the old kings. For all Boromir knew, this man and his immediate ancestors had done nothing other than reproduce and hold on to some heirlooms. The main question he is asking is, obviously, 'Can he fight?' Aragorn is aware that Boromir is one of the most important people he will need to win over, hence his low key answer.

The second point is one made by critic Paul Kocher in his Master of Middle-earth: The Achievement of J. R. R. Tolkien (1972). He devotes a chapter of his book to Aragorn, and makes an interesting point about what happens to that character after his crowning as King Elessar: 'Aragorn the man recedes from us into Aragorn the King. But there are still times when the regal robes are off'. The example Kocher gives is when Aragorn and Gandalf climb Mount Mindolluin. The former points out his loneliness at the long prospect of his new royal responsibility and is aware that Gandalf would soon leave.

Another example, which Kocher was not then aware of, can be seen in the abandoned last chapter of LotR, the versions of which are given in Volume 12 of The History of Middle-earth, when Aragorn as Elessar is going to pay his second visit to the North, and sends a letter to Sam and Rose, saying that he would be at the Brandywine Bridge on a particular date, 'And he desires to greet there all his friends'. He added that 'In especial he desires' to meet Sam, Rose, and their children, each child mentioned by name, a nice touch.

I was sad that this chapter didn't make it; as it showed through the letter that Elessar remembered when he was Aragorn and Strider, and presumably had no problems with his friends addressing him as such.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

It's nice to see how this thread has progressed since my last post...

I'd like to make a couple of points. First, thanks for posting those quotes, Leaf; but I feel you left an important one out. It is the exchange between Boromir and Aragorn at the end of the Council of Elrond, which I think is very revealing. Boromir said that Aragon's sword may stem the tide, 'if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men'. Aragorn's response is quite low key: 'Who can tell? But we will put it to the test one day'.

It is clear from this that Boromir accepted Aragorn's descent, but is waiting to see if he has any of the qualities of the old kings. For all Boromir knew, this man and his immediate ancestors had done nothing other than reproduce and hold on to some heirlooms. The main question he is asking is, obviously, 'Can he fight?' Aragorn is aware that Boromir is one of the most important people he will need to win over, hence his low key answer.

The second point is one made by critic Paul Kocher in his Master of Middle-earth: The Achievement of J. R. R. Tolkien (1972). He devotes a chapter of his book to Aragorn, and makes an interesting point about what happens to that character after his crowning as King Elessar: 'Aragorn the man recedes from us into Aragorn the King. But there are still times when the regal robes are off'. The example Kocher gives is when Aragorn and Gandalf climb Mount Mindolluin. The former points out his loneliness at the long prospect of his new royal responsibility and is aware that Gandalf would soon leave.

Another example, which Kocher was not then aware of, can be seen in the abandoned last chapter of LotR, the versions of which are given in Volume 12 of The History of Middle-earth, when Aragorn as Elessar is going to pay his second visit to the North, and sends a letter to Sam and Rose, saying that he would be at the Brandywine Bridge on a particular date, 'And he desires to greet there all his friends'. He added that 'In especial he desires' to meet Sam, Rose, and their children, each child mentioned by name, a nice touch.

I was sad that this chapter didn't make it; as it showed through the letter that Elessar remembered when he was Aragorn and Strider, and presumably had no problems with his friends addressing him as such.

Thanks for the additional quote from the Council of Elrond. It is indeed an important one as it contains the chief conflict between the ruling stewards and a potential claimant. Boromir and his father have (as every political official) an inherent interest in maintaining their power. This is flankend by the duty (to rule until the king returns) that gave them this power in the first place.


Are there any other essential quotes in Fellowship that we left out? I think the only other relevant passage I could name off the top of my head is the one from The Great River where Aragorns sees the Argonath:

Originally Posted by The Great River

'Fear not!' said a strange voice behind him. Frodo turned and saw Strider, and yet not Strider; for the weatherworn Ranger was no longer there. In the stern sat Aragorn son of Arathorn, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land. 'Fear not!' he said. 'Long have I desired to look upon the likenesses of Isildur and Anárion, my sires of old. Under their shadow Elessar, the Elfstone son of Arathorn of the House of Valandil Isildur’s son, heir of Elendil, has naught to dread!' Then the light of his eyes faded, and he spoke to himself: 'Would that Gandalf were here! How my heart yearns for Minas Anor and the walls of my own city! But whither now shall I go?'

I think that this is the most important quote from Fellowship. It summarizes Aragorn's claims, background and his inner conflict perfectly. I just rewatched the movie equivalent of this scene and Aragorn's lines are reduced to: 'The Argonath. Long have I desired to look upon the Kings of old. My kin.' So we get Aragorn's lineage but not the associated consequences. Viggo Mortensen's performance sadly lacks any resemblance to Book-Aragorn. He just mumbles words in a hushed voice.


I have a feeling that there might be other bits and pieces in the Lothlóren chapters.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

It's nice to see how this thread has progressed since my last post...

I'd like to make a couple of points. First, thanks for posting those quotes, Leaf; but I feel you left an important one out. It is the exchange between Boromir and Aragorn at the end of the Council of Elrond, which I think is very revealing. Boromir said that Aragon's sword may stem the tide, 'if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men'. Aragorn's response is quite low key: 'Who can tell? But we will put it to the test one day'.

It is clear from this that Boromir accepted Aragorn's descent, but is waiting to see if he has any of the qualities of the old kings. For all Boromir knew, this man and his immediate ancestors had done nothing other than reproduce and hold on to some heirlooms. The main question he is asking is, obviously, 'Can he fight?' Aragorn is aware that Boromir is one of the most important people he will need to win over, hence his low key answer.

The second point is one made by critic Paul Kocher in his Master of Middle-earth: The Achievement of J. R. R. Tolkien (1972). He devotes a chapter of his book to Aragorn, and makes an interesting point about what happens to that character after his crowning as King Elessar: 'Aragorn the man recedes from us into Aragorn the King. But there are still times when the regal robes are off'. The example Kocher gives is when Aragorn and Gandalf climb Mount Mindolluin. The former points out his loneliness at the long prospect of his new royal responsibility and is aware that Gandalf would soon leave.

Another example, which Kocher was not then aware of, can be seen in the abandoned last chapter of LotR, the versions of which are given in Volume 12 of The History of Middle-earth, when Aragorn as Elessar is going to pay his second visit to the North, and sends a letter to Sam and Rose, saying that he would be at the Brandywine Bridge on a particular date, 'And he desires to greet there all his friends'. He added that 'In especial he desires' to meet Sam, Rose, and their children, each child mentioned by name, a nice touch.

I was sad that this chapter didn't make it; as it showed through the letter that Elessar remembered when he was Aragorn and Strider, and presumably had no problems with his friends addressing him as such.

In these respects Aragorn shows again the strain of Tragedy that touched all of Tolkien's threads:

That Aragorn has a duty that is not his own doing, but one that has been thrust upon him.

And that because of this duty, he is denied many of the things he had when Sauron still lived (friends, the freedom to come-and-go, few responsibilities to others, etc.).

And the letter to Sam at his coming to the North was a touching reminder of the fact that he remained a man, who had the same needs of any other man (or woman, for that matter - although biology will dictate a few different needs between the genders).

I have not yet read the Paul Kocher book (But I have it in some stack or box, someplace).

I will have to take a look at it sooner than not, from the sounds of it.

Funny.... There is another Paul Kocher I have met in California, who is a Cryptographer. When I first hear of Master of Middle-earth, I confused the two for a while.

MB

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

As a side point, but an important one I think, the Gondorian monarchy (and by association the Arnorian as well) was not an absolute one.

What Tolkien mentions of King Eldacar's trials of ruling is a good example, and even he didn't have the uphill battle of having to explain to others exactly how he was directly descended. Book-Aragorn, as others have pointed out, has had years of this experience, so it does make sense his 'non-mythical' self has his ancestry memorized like a speed dial.

Everyone else in the ruling elite of Gondor that we see in the books is rather obsessed (from our modern perspective) with the how and by who they are descended from Numenor, and in the mythos of the books this has meaning determining the 'potency' of a ruler and it does fluctuate throughout the generations (ex: Denethor and his sons as Gandalf explains to Pippin, or Prince Imrahil as observed by Legolas, etc.)
Maybe they're just born with it, maybe it's those Dunedain genes...

That was a complex situation. I don't know if Tolkien himself had developed all the ultimate complexities at the time of writing. Rohan existed because of the gift of the Steward who ruled until the King returned. Theoretically, that gift could be revoked by the returned King. Aragorn was put in an awkward situation because he was asked (unknowingly on the part of the askers, it is true) to diminish his status and acknowledge the supremacy of the King of Rohan within the bounds of Rohan. Those bounds, however, could still be considered provisional as they had not been confirmed by the King. Acknowledging the claim of the King of Rohan could diminish the legal standing of the King of Gondor should he decide to revoke the gift of Calenardhon.

This is a very good observation. Not to tarnish Aragorn as a politician (as Tolkien wasn't very much a fan of this way of thinking and using your fellow man), but tactically this is a good choice in his immediate situation as he hasn't quite reached Gondor and there is the combined threat of forces from both Saruman and Sauron. If anything, the Rohirrim offer a buffer to the threat of Saruman joining his forces to Sauron, so advantageously it would make sense to not challenge or strip such a title from them. Aragorn arguably wasn't in a position to be that picky with his allies, especially other men who proved quite formidable.
As for the what-maybes after the fall of Sauron, Eomer and Imrahil were connected by marriage, but it would be safe to say no one was particularly interested in the idea of fighting amongst themselves for territory. It is mentioned that Aragorn as king later brought all groups of men into his own, but if this involved political squabbles it isn't said (as Tolkien didn't prefer his exemplary rulers to act this way).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's keep in mind that Tolkien was drawing on a much older mode of narrative art than 20th or even 19th century literature. In the classical and Germanic and medieval legends which formed most of Tolkien's leaf-mould, false modesty (or any modesty) was not a component of the heroic character: Achilles and Sigurd and Beowulf and Gawaine are quite open and proud about their own rank and badassery.