Werewolf CXI - The Black Breath Ward

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Do you mean these?

CONCLUSION FOR THE MOMENT: He might be a good lynch target…but for the time being I’d really rather not…and I will get to why in a minute.

Indeed. You said much the same about Lalaith -

CONCLUSION: She might be a wolf. Not sure she’s the best lynch target, but she definitely might be a wolf.

- and Lommy -

CONCLUSION: Unsure. Could well be a wolf…but might not be.

- lots of "mights" there. In fact, I think your strongest candidate was, well -

CONCLUSION: I might be completely off base on this one. I admit that, and am certainly open to discussion and persuasion on this, but out of all the players in the game right now, I feel worst about him.

- me.

When it came down to Inzil versus Lalaith, though -

Make no mistake about it, I do not trust Inzil. He may very well be bad and we may need to eject him.

However, of the realistic candidates on offer, I feel worse about ++Lalaith.

Sorry, Lalaith. You know I love you.

I'd almost argue you seem to have felt worse about Inzil earlier - it's a bit hard to tell, though, with all the "mights" floating around. However, at the time you quasi-voted, the votes stood thusly -

Loslote=>Lalaith
Zil=>Lalaith
Lommy=>Inzil
Legate=>Inzil

- with Lalaith, Boro, and myself to vote. Lalaith could obviously be expected to vote for Inzil in self-preservation, and Boro abstained (eyebrow-raising; I'd have expected him to care more, I suppose). In any case, it's an interesting tie to have made; your vote kept the votes tied for as long as possible, and you made it fairly plain in your post that you'd be fine with Lalaith or Inzil. It seems disingenuous that you'd then try to use that as evidence today that you didn't want Inzil lynched.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

However, at the time you quasi-voted, the votes stood thusly

You are continuing with your transparent attempts to twist my words. I in no way quasi-voted. When I voted I flat out stated that I wanted Lalaith lynched yesterDAY.

There are three wolves, therefore, I am allowed to suspect more than one person at a time.

We are, however, only allowed to lynch one person at a time. So I have to make a choice about which potential candidate to support at any one time, based on factors such as the intensity of my belief in their guilt and the likelihood of my vote tipping the scales toward lynching the candidate I feel most strongly to be guilty.

For the record, a quasi-vote looks like this...

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

++Lottie 4 Rep

I'd go with Lommy or Boro, at this point. Outside shot at Inzil, I suppose, but the first two (mostly after Lommy's most recent spin on things I've done).

Talk about wishy-washy...

It seems disingenuous that you'd then try to use that as evidence today that you didn't want Inzil lynched.

Inzil might have been bad...and given that we've lynched him I hope he was!

What I object to is your implication that my alleged support of lynching Inzil yesterDAY, an allegation that is not backed up by the easily examined facts, is somehow indicative of my participation in some elaborate and torturous plot to deceive the Ward and win the game as a wolf.

What I pointed out was that your assertion fell flat on its own merits.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I suppose another good question would be, why would a Borowolf use his vote on the cleared innocent Lottie so early on in the day, when the game hinges on a single vote (assuming an innocent Inzil)?

Well, voting anyone but Lottie at this stage is silly. Although he did try, early on, as has been pointed out. Regardless, look at who Lottie has suspected today - Lalaith and myself, for the most part. Whereas Lommy and Kuru are basically given a pass - it's a reasonable assumption to think she'd continue going after Lalaith and I today and leave his packmates alone.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You are continuing with your transparent attempts to twist my words. I in no way quasi-voted. When I voted I flat out stated that I wanted Lalaith lynched yesterDAY.

I'm not twisting anything. You're overreacting a bit, I'm afraid. Each time I've used the phrase "quasi-vote", I've used it to mean the vote that we would cast if we were voting traditionally. In which case your "vote" for Lalaith was a "quasi-vote" - because you didn't have to adhere to it.

My own quasi-vote was in no way "wishy-washy", either - Lommy had very recently acted in a way which made me suspect her and I'd suspected Boro based purely on process of elimination. Inzil was there purely because I thought Lalaith looked better, and they were the two on the chopping block, but I specifically put him last. How is that "wishy-washy"?

What I object to is your implication that my alleged support of lynching Inzil yesterDAY, an allegation that is not backed up by the easily examined facts, is somehow indicative of my participation in some elaborate and torturous plot to deceive the Ward and win the game as a wolf.

I think I've already pointed out that your support of Inzil's lynch was something more than "alleged". Yes, you ended up plus-plusing Lalaith, but you did so in a manner that shifted responsibility for the eventual choice entirely off of you and you made it patently clear that you were okay with either candidate.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'm not twisting anything. You're overreacting a bit, I'm afraid. Each time I've used the phrase "quasi-vote", I've used it to mean the vote that we would cast if we were voting traditionally. In which case your "vote" for Lalaith was a "quasi-vote" - because you didn't have to adhere to it.

Fair enough. I interpreted that you meant the phrase as a short hand for implying that I was not being clear in who I wanted to see lynched yesterDAY.

My apologies on that.

My own quasi-vote was in no way "wishy-washy", either - Lommy had very recently acted in a way which made me suspect her and I'd suspected Boro based purely on process of elimination. Inzil was there purely because I thought Lalaith looked better, and they were the two on the chopping block, but I specifically put him last. How is that "wishy-washy"?

It is wishy-washy because you did not state one specific preference for yesterDAY's lynch.

Again, we can only lynch one at a time and one of the first things I said in this game is that...

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

2) We cannot trust the intentions of the representative! This is a vital point to establish. The Ward must make clear to the representative the appropriate target selection. The only way to hold the representative accountable is if the target is clear and then punish them if they deviate from the Ward's will.

I was adhering to my own principles.

I think I've already pointed out that your support of Inzil's lynch was something more than "alleged". Yes, you ended up plus-plusing Lalaith, but you did so in a manner that shifted responsibility for the eventual choice entirely off of you and you made it patently clear that you were okay with either candidate.

No. That's just a lie. I wanted Lalaith lynched, still do, in fact. I voted that way.

[Kuruharan]

Anyway, as entertaining as this is, we are reaching voting time.

Since, Heaven Knows, I wouldn't want to be accused of quasi-voting, I'd like to be able to make all my votes clearly and in one post.

As I said at the start of the DAY, I think both Shasta and Lalaith are wolves.

It seems like Lalaith is on quite a number of people's suspicion lists so can we accumulate enough votes to tell our Rep to lynch her?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

"Quite a number"? That's stretching things just a tad, don't you think? Lottie has said she suspects Lal, that's true, and Lal shows up on Legate's list as well... but Legate has said he thinks Boro a more likely wolf, Lommy doesn't appear to suspect Lalaith much at all and seemed to come down on the side of suspecting Boro (distancing, in my own opinion, but based purely on what's been said today...), and I think my feelings on Boro vs. Lalaith are pretty clear at this point.

So why you'd continue to push Lalaith over Boro when the facts clearly show that more people suspect Boro escapes me.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It is wishy-washy because you did not state one specific preference for yesterDAY's lynch.

I believe I said I didn't have one. It'd be worse of me to push a lynch on someone I didn't think was a wolf, don't you think?

No. That's just a lie. I wanted Lalaith lynched, still do, in fact. I voted that way.

I've already explained why that vote doesn't actually mean much other than looking good.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I feel much worse about Shasta following his attacks on Kuru and Boro toDay, both because of the potential motivation behind the attacks and the manner of the attacks themselves. He seemed almost desperate to swing the momentum back against Kuru, and kept picking at little things like why Boro didn't vote yesterDay (which made sense to me, he didn't have enough time to read through properly and didn't think he had a good idea of who might be guilty yet) or why Kuru didn't want to lynch Boro toDay despite suspecting him (again, makes perfect sense, we have targets that deserve higher lynching priority). I would put Shasta at the top of my list toDay.

I was desperate, I woke up four hours before deadline!

Lottie, do me a favor here - really look at what I'm saying. We elected to no-lynch for two days in a row - is it really that far-fetched that the wolves would elect to do the same once? Especially given the position it's put Kuru in - you seem to trust him implicitly without really questioning it, based purely on "well, he claimed to have been demoralized".

And I say again, "higher lynching priority"? By my count, most of people who've expressed a preference have put Boro highest on their lists. That's highest lynching priority by default.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Yes, the idea that a thinking human being would have opinions that they would hold to under peer pressure astonishes me, too.

Not the point. Kuru deliberately misrepresented the number of people that suspect Lalaith and ignored Boro entirely.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I still suspect Lalaith, but I would prefer Shasta if other people would be down for that.

I'd be down for that.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

And I say again, "higher lynching priority"? By my count, most of people who've expressed a preference have put Boro highest on their lists. That's highest lynching priority by default.

I don't want Boro lynched toDAY. I don't advocate that and don't support that.

So, I'm moving to another person that appears frequently on the suspicion lists.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ugh. What a mess. I must say I could probably spend several pages analysing how Kuru and Shasta are overreacting to each other, but for the moment, let me say one thing - I am currently starting to think much worse about Shasta again. It isn't that I can't see the response to an attack like Kuru's to be adequate, but the tone strikes me as overly defensive. Plus thinking about Shasta in the "big picture" again, what Lottie said about the WWs needing to misdirect things sort of makes sense.

Gotta think. I am still around for a short time.

EDIT: x-ed with about four last posts

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

So why you'd continue to push Lalaith over Boro when the facts clearly show that more people suspect Boro escapes me.

Yes, the idea that a thinking human being would have opinions that they would hold to under peer pressure astonishes me, too.

I still suspect Lalaith, but I would prefer Shasta if other people would be down for that.

And I'm terribly sorry that my chronic illness is depriving you of entertainment, Shasta, but don't worry - I'll be dead soon enough, and you'll have to come up with something else to do once I'm gone.

Edit: xed since my last

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I've already explained why that vote doesn't actually mean much other than looking good.

That's all well and good, but it does mean something. I wanted to lynch Lalaith, and it was your half vote against Zil that broke the tie and caused me to lynch Zil. Votes do matter, even if they are not built on a foundation of strong suspicion.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I still can't keep from wondering, why did Nerwen die and not Kuru?

Actually, of all the confusing things about this game, this one doesn't surprise me. When Nerwen died, the loss of one innocent wasn't that big a blow - and there was some doubt that it was a genuine despair (my fault, admittedly). Maybe the Herbalist wouldn't have wanted to potentially waste a heal on someone who they weren't sure about, or maybe they wanted to save it for a time when it would help the village more. If Kuru had died, we would potentially have been in a 3-3 split between innocents and wolves - and the Herbalist didn't even know who I'd chosen to have lynched! I would have saved him, too. Saving Kuru helped the village much, much more than saving Nerwen would have, just because of the timing alone.

Edit: xed with everyone since my last

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Lottie, do me a favor here - really look at what I'm saying. We elected to no-lynch for two days in a row - is it really that far-fetched that the wolves would elect to do the same once? Especially given the position it's put Kuru in - you seem to trust him implicitly without really questioning it, based purely on "well, he claimed to have been demoralized".

Incorrect. When Kuru claimed to be demoralized, I seriously considered if he was lying, and then I decided that he didn't have enough motivation to merit that play. I trusted him before he claimed to be demoralized, as did, I think, most of the people around that Day (at least that's the impression I had the Day before he was targeted). He gained no trust from the village because of his claim, and in fact, threw himself further into the spotlight than he had been before. That wouldn't have been a good move for a wolf in the position he had been in when he would have had to make that decision.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Not the point. Kuru deliberately misrepresented the number of people that suspect Lalaith and ignored Boro entirely.

...wow. Deliberately misrepresented? There are seven of us, the difference between 'many' and 'few' is exactly one person. I think you are too caught up in trying to see a Kuruwolf that you're seeing fur where there is none.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

But Lottie, what if your supposition was wrong? You are powerful as a known innocent, and you have got yourself into an alliance with two people that you assume are also innocent. If other people point out that they don't take these assumptions at face value and would like them examined and challenged, that doesn't mean that these people are by default guilty.

I could always be wrong! You could be wrong about me! At a certain point, some things have to be believed, or else you have nothing to go on whatsoever! I trust Legate because he has been level-headed and suggested great ideas that kept the village as safe as possible all game. I trust Kuru because he has been level-headed and willing to engage in open discussion about the game and his suspicions the whole game. Legate and Kuru played smart and stayed active, and they went out of their way to come up with ideas that would seriously hurt the wolves' chances when there was no need to do that, and that is why I trust them.

Edit: xed with everyone since my last

[Lalaith]

Curse this lack of lynching and lack of role reveal...it makes a person think in circles. I can't remember a game where I've suspected so many people and felt so paranoid.

I still can't keep from wondering, why did Nerwen die and not Kuru?
And why have Kuru and Legate supported each other so stalwartly throughout this game and no-one thought it odd?
Kuru, as I said before, you may be innocent in which case your bloodlust to raise a lynchmob against me is misguided - but if you are guilty you have played brilliantly.

[Lalaith]

f all three of Legate, Kuru, and I are out of the running for the lynch toDay, then that leaves only four people - Lommy, Lalaith, Boro, and Shasta. We have between three and two wolves in those four people, depending on Zil's alignment. The chances of us hitting a wolf are really very good so long as we stick to only these four people. If we suddenly expand that to include Legate and Kuru, then our chances go way down. So I'm very suspicious of the people trying to cast suspicion on either of those two - yesterDay it was mostly on Legate, toDay it seems to mostly be on Kuru, but both Days the suspicion was flaky and unsubstantiated.

But Lottie, what if your supposition was wrong? You are powerful as a known innocent, and you have got yourself into an alliance with two people that you assume are also innocent. If other people point out that they don't take these assumptions at face value and would like them examined and challenged, that doesn't mean that these people are by default guilty.

[Kuruharan]

Just as an aside, I'm beginning to think the reason for this tirade is that the wolves are all effectively caught by the tail, fear the handwriting is on the wall and are trying desperate measures.

Makes me feel better about Inzil's guilt actually. I'm not sure wolves would launch themselves like this if three of them were left.

[Loslote]

Shasta, I disagree so strongly with your interpretations of what's been going on that it's almost like we're playing totally different games.

I do think the wolves *need* to attack at least one of Legate or Kuru toDay, simply because of the way the numbers currently stand. If all three of Legate, Kuru, and I are out of the running for the lynch toDay, then that leaves only four people - Lommy, Lalaith, Boro, and Shasta. We have between three and two wolves in those four people, depending on Zil's alignment. The chances of us hitting a wolf are really very good so long as we stick to only these four people. If we suddenly expand that to include Legate and Kuru, then our chances go way down. So I'm very suspicious of the people trying to cast suspicion on either of those two - yesterDay it was mostly on Legate, toDay it seems to mostly be on Kuru, but both Days the suspicion was flaky and unsubstantiated.

I feel much worse about Shasta following his attacks on Kuru and Boro toDay, both because of the potential motivation behind the attacks and the manner of the attacks themselves. He seemed almost desperate to swing the momentum back against Kuru, and kept picking at little things like why Boro didn't vote yesterDay (which made sense to me, he didn't have enough time to read through properly and didn't think he had a good idea of who might be guilty yet) or why Kuru didn't want to lynch Boro toDay despite suspecting him (again, makes perfect sense, we have targets that deserve higher lynching priority). I would put Shasta at the top of my list toDay.

Edit: xed since Shasta's #244