Interesting article about Variags

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Khand is the connecting point between the East and the South. Culturally, since cultures in origin are so heavily impacted by the climates in which they develop, I think Khand was more arid than steppe making them possibly fit better into the milieu of Harad rather than Rhun.

While it's always dangerous to play sound-alikes with Tolkien's nomenclature, Khand could be a sort of sideways allusion to Khazar: the Turkic inhabitants of the medieval Crimea, likewise a "connecting point between the East and the South".

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The only issue I have with the otherwise attractive Varangian theory is that the Varangian Guard were the Norse (and Anglo-Saxon) expats in service to the Byzantine Empire -- upon which Gondor is clearly calqued -- not Byzantium's Slavic and Muslim enemies.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The only issue I have with the otherwise attractive Varangian theory is that the Varangian Guard were the Norse (and Anglo-Saxon) expats in service to the Byzantine Empire

I suppose the response to this would be what the article points out - that the word "varangian" and its relatives (such as "variag") does not necessarily refer to the Varangian guard:

Varangian means primarily a “denizen” or [Greek spelling], and took its rise among the Scandinavians to denote the Swedish settlers in Russia. The name was afterward given to the imperial body-guard at Constantinople, which was at first mainly a Scandinavian corps.

Thus the use to refer specifically to the guard came later. One assumes Professor Tolkien knew of this.

If we solely connect the term "variag" to the Varangian guard, then the Variags of Khand might not be Northmen because that might be taking the historical analogy too far; as you point out, we'd expect them to be in the service of Gondor if they were meant to be totally equivalent to the Byzantine Variags. However, it's also worth pointing out this other quote:

Hence Varangians were historically seen as outsiders settling among (and being accepted among) the Slavic peoples of the region that later became Russia.

Thus "variag" can also have connotations (at least, perhaps, to Professor Tolkien) "Scandinavian in Russia, not exclusively "Scandinavian in the Byzantine Empire". Of course, we have no evidence to suggest that Khand was meant to be in any way equivalent to Russia beyond the fact that Professor Tolkien suggested in a note that "variag" was representing a word from a non-Western language in Middle-earth.

That's how it seems to me, at least.

[Galadriel55]

This is something I only came to appreciate in the last little while, particularly after giving this thread another think. Rationally, I can see how there could be an equivalent of Russia somewhere in the north of Rhun. It would make logical sense, since other real-world regions have their parallels in Middle-earth. But I would never have thought of the possibility myself, and my gut reaction is still that there is no such thing. I thought about it, and realized that the discrepancy is due to the assumption that LOTR is a story of another world, and that therefore there cannot be any of yours in it. Other countries are okay, other regions, cultures, etc. But your own just doesn't fit. You don't expect to see your life amid a tale of magical beings and mythical races. It's not foreign enough. So while it's easy for me to say "It's like Africa!" or "They are like Scythians!", when it comes to Russia my gut reaction is "Where did you get that? There's no way there's ancient Russia in Middle-earth. That's us, we can't have been one of these mythical races, we were definitely something different. We definitely don't fit the bill". You just mentally fill up the spaces with imaginary foreign races, but can't accept your own.

I should probably mention that while I became obsessed with LOTR when already living in Canada, my first introduction has been in Russia, which might have affected my initial perception (first impressions matter, right?). And I read my translation of LOTR a lot more than I did the original. The translators did a good job with the names, in my opinion, but they do not always match the tone and style of the original. For instance, Bree is a mix of English- and Western Slavic-sounding names, and the Shire is similar but with more things shoved in the mesh. So as a result, hobbits get associations with Britain and with something close to home (like the British associations are for Brits ) but not quite home. Maybe that also shifted my perception that if "home" is anywhere, it's with the hobbits and not in the vast uncharted space. Those spaces automatically get filled in with any neighbouring or faraway culture and people in history, except your own.


I know I've gotten into debates about Varangians and Slaves in Middle-earth before, and now I have to reconsider everything keeping in mind that the main reason I didn't want to see it is I was looking from within a people on its potential parallel. I am consoling myself with the thought that statistically I can't be the only ethnocentric Tolkien fan, which begs the question: do you think your own country, culture, language, or upbringing may have affected how you see parallels between the legendarium and the real world? Are you more likely or less likely to draw parallels with other cultures or with your own? [especially regarding the Variags, because I am not gonna hijack the thread. If this gains enough interest I'll start a new thread for it].

[Andsigil]

I noticed in the Hobbit film that the men of Dale had a slavic look to their armor, with spiked helmets, just before Smaug came and roasted everyone.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I noticed in the Hobbit film that the men of Dale had a slavic look to their armor, with spiked helmets, just before Smaug came and roasted everyone.

But didn't PJ also think Radagast the Brown was much more interesting as a rabbit-riding Monty Python refugee?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I noticed in the Hobbit film that the men of Dale had a slavic look to their armor, with spiked helmets, just before Smaug came and roasted everyone.

I noticed in the Hobbit film that goblins ride Shai-halud sandworms from Arrakis.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I noticed in the Hobbit film that goblins ride Shai-halud sandworms from Arrakis.

"Tell me of your home world, Estel."

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I noticed in the Hobbit film that goblins ride Shai-halud sandworms from Arrakis.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

"Tell me of your home world, Estel."

Sandworms! Those were Were-worms, I'll have you know! Practically almost canonical-ish.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

when it comes to Russia my gut reaction is "Where did you get that? There's no way there's ancient Russia in Middle-earth. That's us, we can't have been one of these mythical races, we were definitely something different. We definitely don't fit the bill".

I suppose it's worth bearing in mind that "variag" seems to be a word in the tongue of Khand in the same way that the Men of Rohan "speak Old English" or the Men of Dale "speak Old Norse", which is to say that they don't really; it's just a relational linguistic equivalent. Even if Professor Tolkien used "variag" to suggest that the Men of Khand were linguistically the equivalent of ancient Russians in relation to Westron, they still wouldn't really be Russians or Slavs. They would just possibly occupy an equivalent position in the linguistic landscape of Middle-earth.
That being said, it's odd that we seem to see the "real" tongue of Near Harad in the word mûmak and yet the tongue of Khand is represented by a Slavic language. Off the top of my head I can't think of any words we hear that are in any tongue of the Easterlings of the Third Age.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I noticed in the Hobbit film that the men of Dale had a slavic look to their armor, with spiked helmets, just before Smaug came and roasted everyone.

I wonder if this was a lazy way to represent that they're "from the North" (which they aren't any more than Bilbo is especially; they're just Northmen in relation to Gondor) or if the filmmakers thought making them look like Scandinavians (of which the Men of Dale are meant to be an equivalent) would have caused them to look too much like the film version of the Men of Rohan (which they wouldn't have, really).