Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Kuruharan]

Alrighty.

I am currently soliciting some expert opinions on another experimental format. Alas, some people don't frequent the Downs any more or have full PM boxes.

My idea will probably require 13-15 people to work...which may be a bit of a challenge as well in these latter days.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Alrighty.

I am currently soliciting some expert opinions on another experimental format. Alas, some people don't frequent the Downs any more or have full PM boxes.

My idea will probably require 13-15 people to work...which may be a bit of a challenge as well in these latter days.

Will I do as an "expert"?

[Boromir88]

I'm open ears for some WW ideas and can probably join in a game

[Kuruharan]

I have created the admin thread for Dueling Wizards III here.

Everyone who said they wanted to sign up for this game please affirm that in the other thread.

Also, please continue any rules discussion in that thread.

[satansaloser2005]

I know I'm going to regret this because I don't really have time for a game right now, but....

Anyone want to play some Werewolf?

[Inziladun]

It's hard for me to play at work now, it's grass cutting season, many RL things intruding...but...yes.

[Nogrod]

Let's play Werewolf again?

I know some people (myself included) have been joking lately, that with the global situation being what it is, a game of Werewolf could be in place. We discussed this with Thinlomien and A Little Green just a moment ago and decided that I'd go and make an actual suggestion of it here. So why not play a game for a looong time?

If there would be willing players to play a game, there would be a couple of things we'd need to consider.


Modding: Most people surely crave for playing rather than modding now. I could mod the game unless there is someone who would really want to do that. In case there are many people wishing to mod a game, let's see if we have those old modding-lists somewhere, and then see who of the willing are highest on that list.


Game-mechanics: My initial idea was, that this would call for a really basic "old school" game, but then I managed to think it twice. The problem with the basic game is, that if you get lynched on the first day, which happens to someone anyway, the game is over. I think that after this long pause in Werewolf it would be much more fun if everyone could play a bit longer than that.

Therefore I'd suggest some form of a "Dead-thread"-game, where playing in the dead-thread would be meaningful and interesting (aka. the dead would have some power on the events - but not too much, of course). We should discuss the details together. I'd not suggest a Dueling Wizards -game or any such over-complex one though. A simple game, but one where the dead could also play and try to actually influence the outcome.


Theme: Would it be distasteful / out of question to put the game into the world of "The Children of Húrin" where plague ravaged the village? Well, that's just one idea. And if someone else mods the game, they sure are free to come up with whatever they like.


So, what say you? Shall we play?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So, what say you? Shall we play?

Yes please!

A basic game would be nice (perhaps with a cobbler thrown in if we have enough players...? one can always hope) but I'm not opposed to a dead thread if the rules are as simple as they were the last time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am very happy that there is a brave soul who would suggest it! I am sure there are more of the same mind.

I would also advocate for a simple game, nothing too experimental. A basic Wolves-Seer-Ranger-Hunter-possibly Cobbler setup would be fine.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The problem with the basic game is, that if you get lynched on the first day, which happens to someone anyway, the game is over. I think that after this long pause in Werewolf it would be much more fun if everyone could play a bit longer than that.

Therefore I'd suggest some form of a "Dead-thread"-game, where playing in the dead-thread would be meaningful and interesting (aka. the dead would have some power on the events - but not too much, of course). We should discuss the details together. I'd not suggest a Dueling Wizards -game or any such over-complex one though. A simple game, but one where the dead could also play and try to actually influence the outcome.

A good observation. I agree with that sentiment. Perhaps we (and yes, I already said "we"; clearly I am already counting on this happening and counting with me being there - woe is me...) could have a dead thread - maybe with some simple power such as giving the one extra vote to a person every day, meaning empowering one of the living they trust, or somesuch. Even though I remember it frustrated me to no end as a Wolf. But isn't frustration an inseparable part of a good WW game?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Theme: Would it be distasteful / out of question to put the game into the world of "The Children of Húrin" where plague ravaged the village? Well, that's just one idea. And if someone else mods the game, they sure are free to come up with whatever they like.

For myself, I don't think it a problem. I would exactly think it appropriate. "If we can't do very much about it, we can at least laugh about it," as one great artist compatriot of mine once said.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Will I do as an "expert"?

Always and Forever!

However, in this context expert should be interpreted to mean "pioneer of a specific game type or mod of the same."

However, I suspect I've gotten as much input from that demographic as I am going to get.

I'll be posting my draft rules...probably tomorrow as today is looking kind of full.

I may do it in this thread to ensure maximum notice of them.

[Kuruharan]

Behold my fiendish creation: Dueling Wizards, Deadthread Werewolf!!!! *dun dun dun dun*

What follows is a stripped down version of the draft rules, removing a lot of the usual minutiae, but I fear it is still kind of lengthy.

Wizards
There is a Good Wizard and an Evil Wizard. They are the driving force of much of the game. They are the only two roles that are assigned by me at the start of the game. They cannot be killed by normal means; they must be killed by each other in a Wizard’s Duel (which should be thought of as being pronounced Weeeeezaaard's Duuuuel in a ridiculous high-pitched voice) in which both of them will perish. They will stay in the Dead Thread after death. They have no special ability to communicate across the barrier of death.

The game commences and the Wizards begin their picks on NIGHT 1. Wizards make their selections one at a time. The Evil Wizard and the newly minted werewolf cannot make a kill on NIGHT 1 but the newly minted Gifted can begin performing their function immediately. If the Good Wizard and the Evil Wizard pick the same person (including on NIGHT 1) the picks are both nullified but that is all. The pick target does not die nor are the Wizards made aware of each other’s identity through this action. The picks in this game are limited and do not replenish. Once the number of picks available to each Wizard is expended there are no more.

There is nothing in the rules necessarily saying that the Wizards have to keep their identities a secret, but at some point in the game the other side has to kill them so they should probably keep their identity hush-hush for as long as possible.

Good Wizard – The Good Wizard creates the Hunter, the Ranger, and (at least) one Visitor. The picks do not have to be made strictly sequentially. On NIGHTS when a Gifted is not created the Good Wizard may scry the role of a player. The Good Wizard is informed of the role of the target exactly. If the Good Wizard picks a wolf for converting into a Gifted that pick is deterred but the Good Wizard keeps that pick for future use. It is not lost. If the Good Wizard scrys the Evil Wizard, the Good Wizard is informed of the identity of the Evil Wizard. The Good Wizard is never in direct communication with the Gifteds, nor are the Gifteds ever in communication with each other. The Good Wizard may send messages via the mod while alive to the Gifteds but may not share the Gifted’s identities with each other. This is RPed as dreams so will occur during the NIGHT phase. If a Gifted is killed and the Good Wizard has expended all three picks in creating Gifteds, that Gifted cannot be replaced.

Evil Wizard – The Evil Wizard may pick 3 wolves in total during the NIGHT. The picks do not have to be made strictly sequentially. On NIGHTS when a wolf is not created the Evil Wizard may scry the role of the target in quest of finding the Good Wizard. That is the only information that the Evil Wizard will find out. If the scry target is a Gifted that will not be revealed to the Evil Wizard. If the Evil Wizard picks a Gifted for converting into a wolf that pick is deterred but the Evil Wizard still keeps that pick for future use. It is not lost. If the Evil Wizard scrys the Good Wizard, the Evil Wizard is informed of the identity of the Good Wizard. The Evil Wizard and Wolves are able to PM each other during the NIGHT phase. Their identities are not secret from each other and there are no re-conversions from one side to the other in this game. If a wolf is killed in the game and the Evil Wizard has expended all three picks in creating wolves, that wolf cannot be replaced. The Evil Wizard cannot communicate with the wolves across the barrier of death.

Gifteds
Hunter - Usual Hunter role

Ranger - Usual Ranger role except that unlike other Dead Thread games the Ranger cannot return from the dead. That function is fulfilled by the Visitor(s).

Visitor - The Visitor role is the role that can pass between the Living Thread and the Dead Thread. The Visitor is created by the Good Wizard. Once the Visitor enters the Dead Thread they remain there for a DAY/NIGHT cycle. Then they return to the Living Thread, assuming the game is still ongoing. This is not a Lover role. They are guaranteed to return if the game continues. The Visitor remains in the Living Thread and can vote for one DAY and then returns to the Dead Thread permanently.

I am not sure if the Good Wizard should be able to inadvertently make a wolf a Visitor or if there should be one or two Visitors.

Wolves
Standard wolf pack in almost all respects except for how they are generated.

Winding Up
Those are the roles I have sketched out in my head at the present. Due to the powers of the Good Wizard I am skeptical of including a Seer in this game. It seems redundant and I think biases the game against the wolves too much.

The reason why I don't plan to allow reconversions, am keeping the number of picks limited in this game, and am allowing the Bad side to know each others identities is that I'm expecting this to be a rather low population game. These latter days we struggle to get many people to sign up for games and I want to make it workable for a smaller group. I'm not necessarily wedded to the specific numbers yet. I'm also not certain if there should be one or two Visitors. If there is the chance for the GW to pick a wolf as a Visitor then I think there needs to be two Visitors.

If we suddenly get a rush of sign ups and it looks like the population might be higher than I anticipate I might change some of the above.

Comments? Criticisms?

EDIT Forgot to mention that the Dead Thread will function the same way as the last Dead Thread game as far as vote empowerment etc.

[Loslote]

I've never played a Dueling Wizards game before, so I don't have comments or anything, but I'm definitely excited! Also, is the hunter logical or non-logical? Can't wait!

[Nerwen]

Oooh! Exciting!


I've technically played in one Duelling Wizards game, but I died very early. Still, here are some suggestions/comments:

1. I agree the Seer is redundant.

2. Not sure about the Visitor. I like the idea of keeping some uncertainty about the role's alignment, i.e. a possible wolf- and yes, in that case there should be two. Even so, it sounds like the sort of role that can skew a game rather easily, so needs careful implementation.

3. What, to you, is the "usual Hunter role"? Logical or non-logical? Similarly, what are the rules for Ranger protections?

4. Are roles normally revealed on death? Or is this like other games with a Dead Thread in that respect?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, is the hunter logical or non-logical? Can't wait!

-and-

Originally Posted by Nerwen

3. What, to you, is the "usual Hunter role"? Logical or non-logical? Similarly, what are the rules for Ranger protections?

To me the "usual hunters" are as illogical as possible. Probably because of a hazy and scarring memory from the distant past where as a Hunter I accidently took out the Seer or something...I don't remember exactly what my blunder was...I just remember it being baaaaad.

As for the Ranger: can't protect the same target twice in a row but can protect the same target multiple times, so theoretically could protect the same person every other NIGHT over and over again.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

2. Not sure about the Visitor. I like the idea of keeping some uncertainty about the role's alignment, i.e. a possible wolf- and yes, in that case there should be two. Even so, it sounds like the sort of role that can skew a game rather easily, so needs careful implementation.

I know. That is the problem.

I don't want to set up a situation via the rules where one decision by one individual basically wins the game for one side and having only one Visitor could do that. While having two Visitors would dilute the power a bit it would add to the number of players needed for the game.

Basically we need to ask ourselves, what would the phantom do to break the game to turn it in his favor depending on what side he was on.

Originally Posted by Nerwent

4. Are roles normally revealed on death? Or is this like other games with a Dead Thread in that respect?

No, roles would not be revealed on death. The only way for the "General Public" to find out a role for sure is in the dead thread during the NIGHTly reveal vote.

My calculations (which might be horribly wrong) say that we need a minimum of 13-15 players to make this work...more would be awesome.

So start working Facebook, everybody!