Orc intergration after the War?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Aaron

So, this is a subject which really intrigues me. Tolkien, in no small part thanks to his sincere Christian convictions, did not seem to cast the Orcs as being wholly evil and capable of good - though this was obviously difficult thanks to Sauron's malignant influence over them.

But, after the War of the Ring, do you think any Orcs could have become integrated into societies such as Gondor or Rohan? Would the people there have accepted this? As King, would Aragon have allowed it? Certainly, from what we see of their speech patterns and character, they seem to have far more in common with men in Tolkien's world than the more aloof and scholarly Elves.

Judging from what we saw of The New Shadow, it seems clear that in Gondorian society, Orcs were not present, and took on the role of a boogeyman. Allowing naughty children to "play Orc" and act like delinquents.

But do you believe it was ever possible for them to join human societies once Sauron was defeated?

Yes.

The Uruk Hai were Saruman's blending of races, implying sexual contact in procreation between humanoids. It seems to me, then that the two races were I) sentient (as we know), ii) birthed by womb iii) intermingle-able.

The Elvish precedents on Imrahil, etc remind us that Elves and Men were, as children of Illuvatar, able to blend. We seem to be told that Morgoth somehow 'made' the Orcs, although I have been told here that the "warped Elf" theory a.k.a. "abducted Cuivinen Elves" is not Tolkien's final word here.

In any case, it is only hatred that divided the races of Eru (and I'm betting Eru had mercy for the Orcish sentience). I do not think well of Elvish hatred of Orc and vice versa, and obviously as sentient races, they had potential to see life, birth, death, hunger and suffering in the other race. Whatever happened to empathic capacity and Elvendom?

I do not support any view that essentialises a race as 'wholly' good or evil, and the evil is to blackball any race, en bloc. We also know the Elves certainly had a psycho streak. Eol, for example, tossed of precipice in overt vengeful ideation, for the death of Aredhel. She was not very interesting anyway.

Cheers
stav

[Zigûr]

I was going to post this in the Sauron's Great Miscalculation thread but as I feel I've already contributed sufficiently to going off topic there, I've reworked this to fit this topic more closely.

Orcs and spirituality
Professor Tolkien observed the possibility of Orcs considering Morgoth to be their 'father', in a spiritual sense, but this was blasphemous and spiritually deleterious: "Any creature that took him for Lord (and especially those who blasphemously called him Father or Creator) became soon corrupted in all parts of its being" (Morgoth's Ring). This also suggests that it would take many generations for Orcs to even begin to mingle with Mannish society, as Gondor after the restoration of the King appears to have also resulted in the restoration of what constituted their religious practices, as stated in Letter 156. The Orcs, deluded about their spiritual origin, would not have been an easy fit into this society, and I imagine it would have only occurred in days when, I assume, the fortitude of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth again waned, as it appeared to already be doing late in Eldarion's reign if The New Shadow is any indication, and by extension I imagine the worship of God again faltered, as it had in the king's absence.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I was going to post this in the Sauron's Great Miscalculation thread but as I feel I've already contributed sufficiently to going off topic there, I've reworked this to fit this topic more closely.

Orcs and spirituality
Professor Tolkien observed the possibility of Orcs considering Morgoth to be their 'father', in a spiritual sense, but this was blasphemous and spiritually deleterious: "Any creature that took him for Lord (and especially those who blasphemously called him Father or Creator) became soon corrupted in all parts of its being" (Morgoth's Ring). This also suggests that it would take many generations for Orcs to even begin to mingle with Mannish society, as Gondor after the restoration of the King appears to have also resulted in the restoration of what constituted their religious practices, as stated in Letter 156. The Orcs, deluded about their spiritual origin, would not have been an easy fit into this society, and I imagine it would have only occurred in days when, I assume, the fortitude of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth again waned, as it appeared to already be doing late in Eldarion's reign if The New Shadow is any indication, and by extension I imagine the worship of God again faltered, as it had in the king's absence.

Animals have sentience and any being with (aural) sentience (language) and secondly as evidencing capacity for biological intermingling, and thirdly with trace to the same Pantheon suggests intermingling should be not slow, but as rapid as migration or interactions occur.

By analogy, Satanists blend with Christians in the world of monotheism. Eru and the parable of Vanity makes Morgoth and Sauron same same. E.g. on Numenor, Morgoth was worshipped, and this did not slow the mingling of Men and Men. We also know Men were more vulnerable to being made worshippers of Evil, so again, Orc and Man have a common dinner table.

[Rhun charioteer]

I imagine orcs survived for quite some time in the Fourth age though any bands that got aggressive enough or large enough were hunted down and destroyed.

I personally don't believe there would be a conscious policy of extermination but eventually with there would no orc females remaining and they eventually died out.