Bombadil’s Green Girdle

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I'll post, for courtesy, but the angle on the leading post, personally, is too analytical and too focussed on Academic emphasis, without enough fun and 'Bombadil' as he was sent to us via Tolkien, so I'll morph the emphasis, and happy to continue if you apply the KISS test (keep it simple stupid) or even if technical, make it weirder, or funner. Personal opinion only.

1. Tom Bobadil's apparent immunity to the Ring's invisibility effects imply hierarchy of Maia in terms of power and I see him as a Maia. It is implied that Galadriel and Gandalf, possibly Elrond would have the same capacity, as is anyone who could wrest the Ring off Sauron. Gandalf states in prose as does Galadriel that they could supplant Sauron with their own person, and become Sauronic over time in mood, emphasis of greed to dominate, and in all things sadistic and enslaving.

2. In Bombadil's proximity, Frodo has the Tol Erresea dream, implying, again 'line of Sight' of Bombadil with the Western Straight Road.

3. The term 'girdle' likens itself to the Girdle of Melian, with Bombadil's capacities about Forests as well, and

4. We know that he is 'Eldest' without clear implications about what that means, except that his housing of the Ring would not solve the 'Sauron' problem.

5. It is suggested tacitly in the prose that the Old Forest (might) have had unity with Fangorn's prior to the Numenoreans culling the treeline between Tharbad, up the Greenway to the Old Forest. I have long wondered if the Entwives went North, and if Bombadil knows their fate. There's some tantalising hints in the books of sightings of walking trees North.

And all this passes the KISS test...how, exactly?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

And all this passes the KISS test...how, exactly?

Hello Nerwen hahahah

I didn't say it passed its own KISS test - perhaps it's polite to be welcoming of the opening poster....by mirroring (what I could - I don't have their training) of his/her gifted scholarship.

Do you think Bombadil's "Girdle" around the old forest likens itself to the Girdle of Melian?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hello Nerwen hahahah

I didn't say it passed its own KISS test - perhaps it's polite to be welcoming of the opening poster....by mirroring (what I could - I don't have their training) of his/her gifted scholarship.

Do you think Bombadil's "Girdle" around the old forest likens itself to the Girdle of Melian?

Well, you could say "Bombadil is to the Old Forest as Melian is to Doriath", certainly- but I'm not sure whether his physical girdle (not mentioned in "Lord of the Rings" IIRC) should be seen as a reference to that.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Do you think Bombadil's "Girdle" around the old forest likens itself to the Girdle of Melian?

It doesn't seem that Bombadil himself affects those wondering into the Old Forest.

When Frodo and his friends enter the Forest with a direction in mind, it appears that it is the collective will of the wood (ultimately, the Willow-man?) that decides they should be forced toward the Withywindle.
When they are saved by Bombadil, he tells the hobbits that event was "no plan of his". If his aiding them was something he had not directed, then neither was their being in the position to be rescued.
Also, the placing of a 'girdle' ala Melian would imply his claim of the Forest as a realm, and that was something contrary to his nature.

[Morthoron]

Rather than pull stray words out of a hat and put context where there is none, Tolkien the scholar would know the significance of Gawaine's green girdle is not its invincibility, but is rather symbolic of Gawaine's failure against the Green Knight.

Gawaine accepts the girdle from Lady Bertilak, and although he readily, almost fearfully, takes it, valuing survival over virtue (and surviving without honour is unchivalrous). Gawaine refers to the girdle as “falssyng" (which roughly equates to "treachery").

Thus, after the Green Knight forgives him for his treachery, Gawaine nobly wears the girdle ever after as the symbol of his loss of honour, evincing the quote "a man may hide his misdeed, but never erase it."

So for Tolkien to equate Bombadil's green girdle with Gawaine's green girdle is rather farcical, since neither match contextually except they are green and a girdle. Rather than pulling appalling parallels from one's appendages, take the line

"bright blue his jacket was and his boots were yellow, green were his girdle..."

as simply a metaphor for sky, grass and flowers.

[Ivriniel]

@Morthoron

I thought Balrogs took ski holidays in the Misty Mountains when travelling in subterreanean vaults to place a Silmaril (Arkestone) in The Lonely Mountain.

@ reader - more responding to prior post....

I posted to the thread because I don't like seeing '0' posts on a lonely topic. So, in the syncretic tradition (the attempt to juxtapose on terms), let's see how much agreement we have so far. Hello Mmorthoron, great to see you.

Okay, merely using the word, 'girdle' implies presence by absence. Girdle is not appreciably central in Tolkienian casting of Bombadil, as has been rightly pointed out, the lunacy of the attempt to 'make it work' is nonetheless likened to 'a blue moon' where 'luna' and 'madness or otherwise - rarity' can be a term to apply to the analysis.

So, whilst the Arthurian Sir what's his name, of Morgan Le Fay's feminine manipulations was a ploy in two then Folklore Traditions (Exchange and Winnings), do we see those in Bombadil? I argue YES

yes when drawing a log bow, but one like in the hands of an Elf, Legolas. Bombadil's Withywindle is a Girdle - whether or not it is 'territorially disposed TO Bombadil', nonetheless, Bombadil evidences immunity to it (if it is not his Territory) or alternatively, it is Goldberry's or else, some mischief of prose and mendacity that Bombadil feigns to disown legacy and ownership of it.

We see Gawain and treachery interspersed in the Green Night, with Morgan Le Fay as master manipulator, although concurrently, the Green Knight bears connotations to a Chrisitian and almost Christ like sensibility in self sacrifice (he did lose his head from Gawain's bow, then, did naught but humiliate Gawain in non-equivalence of blow in the climax).

So, back to the Barrow Downs: the Exchange and Winnings adaptation of a Medieval motif (rather not squarely onto Tolkienian mythology), what do we have.

Carn Dum violating Barrows within Bombadil's Girdle, that he leaves alone. It's all very odd. He lets the Northern Line of Numenor falter, and fails to cleanse the Mounts, yet, overruns one after Tom puts on the Ring. He grants passage to Frodo with the Ring, which of course is Master power to the Nine and of the linked 'energy' to the Witchking.

Girdle of Melian to Girdle of Witchking (I suspect the Witchking was a cross dresser?) to Girdle of Bombadil, and thus in honour of the Syncretic tradition, we have a delightful reconciliation of the Opening Post. with No deviations or areas of concern.



I'm checking myself into therapy after writing the post

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

@Morthoron

I thought Balrogs took ski holidays in the Misty Mountains when travelling in subterreanean vaults to place a Silmaril (Arkestone) in The Lonely Mountain.

@ reader - more responding to prior post....

I posted to the thread because I don't like seeing '0' posts on a lonely topic. So, in the syncretic tradition (the attempt to juxtapose on terms), let's see how much agreement we have so far. Hello Mmorthoron, great to see you.

Okay, merely using the word, 'girdle' implies presence by absence. Girdle is not appreciably central in Tolkienian casting of Bombadil, as has been rightly pointed out, the lunacy of the attempt to 'make it work' is nonetheless likened to 'a blue moon' where 'luna' and 'madness or otherwise - rarity' can be a term to apply to the analysis.

So, whilst the Arthurian Sir what's his name, of Morgan Le Fay's feminine manipulations was a ploy in two then Folklore Traditions (Exchange and Winnings), do we see those in Bombadil? I argue YES

yes when drawing a log bow, but one like in the hands of an Elf, Legolas. Bombadil's Withywindle is a Girdle - whether or not it is 'territorially disposed TO Bombadil', nonetheless, Bombadil evidences immunity to it (if it is not his Territory) or alternatively, it is Goldberry's or else, some mischief of prose and mendacity that Bombadil feigns to disown legacy and ownership of it.

We see Gawain and treachery interspersed in the Green Night, with Morgan Le Fay as master manipulator, although concurrently, the Green Knight bears connotations to a Chrisitian and almost Christ like sensibility in self sacrifice (he did lose his head from Gawain's bow, then, did naught but humiliate Gawain in non-equivalence of blow in the climax).

So, back to the Barrow Downs: the Exchange and Winnings adaptation of a Medieval motif (rather not squarely onto Tolkienian mythology), what do we have.

Carn Dum violating Barrows within Bombadil's Girdle, that he leaves alone. It's all very odd. He lets the Northern Line of Numenor falter, and fails to cleanse the Mounts, yet, overruns one after Tom puts on the Ring. He grants passage to Frodo with the Ring, which of course is Master power to the Nine and of the linked 'energy' to the Witchking.

Girdle of Melian to Girdle of Witchking (I suspect the Witchking was a cross dresser?) to Girdle of Bombadil, and thus in honour of the Syncretic tradition, we have a delightful reconciliation of the Opening Post. with No deviations or areas of concern.



I'm checking myself into therapy after writing the post

As am I, after reading it.

In answer to all of you: could the green girdle be a reference to "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight"? I think it is possible. Must it, then, necessarily bear the entire weight of symbolism ascribed to it by a.) Priya Seth, b.) Morth or c.) Ivriniel?
I think not. It is only a girdle, after all, and I fear it would snap under so tremendous a strain!

Btw, Ivrin, do come back to the "Password" thread. Pervinca and I have no-one to play with.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

As am I, after reading it.

In answer to all of you: could the green girdle be a reference to "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight"? I think it is possible. Must it, then, necessarily bear the entire weight of symbolism ascribed to it by a.) Priya Seth, b.) Morth or c.) Ivriniel?
I think not. It is only a girdle, after all, and I fear it would snap under so tremendous a strain!

Btw, Ivrin, do come back to the "Password" thread. Pervinca and I have no-one to play with.

hahaha well said