Of Men

[ArcusCalion]

OM-06.3: This whole sentence should be deleted, because the whole people of Men were in one place when Melkor appears to them in the Tale of Adanel, so they cannot spread across the earth.

OM-07.2: I would add an "evil" before the "Dwarves" at the first occurrence. Dwarves are not inherently evil in later versions, so that these dwarves are evil is a departure from the norm, and should be noted.

As a general note I noticed that the base text of the chapter uses "Morgoth" whereas the Grey Annals and Lost Tales insertions use "Melkor." We should standardize as "Morgoth" throughout.

[Findegil]

OM-06.3: Okay, but then I think we have to skip the next as well. And probably it makes sense to put them in later:

... life teemed upon the soil and in the waters. OM-06.1 <LT, Outline D The hosts of Men came forth as sleepy children, raising a dumb clamour at the Sun; they followed it westward when it returned, and were grievously afraid of the first NightOM-06.2{. Nuin and Ermon and Elmir taught them speech.
Men grew in stature, and gathered knowledge of the Dark Elves,'}, but Tû faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns. Men dwelt in the centre of the world and spread thence in all directions; and a very great age passed.> OM-06.3{But the first sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned thitherward, and their feet as they wandered over earth for the most part strayed that way.}
§83 Of Men …
…
...
§80 But that some darkness lay upon the hearts of Men … leaving behind at that time but few servants, and those of less might and cunning.>
OM-07.05 <LT, Outline D Men dwelt in the centre of the world and spread thence in all directionsOM-07.07{; and a very great age passed}.> OM-07.08 <moved from above But the first sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned thitherward, and their feet as they wandered over earth for the most part strayed that way.>
OM-07.1 <moved from above Yet it is told that ere long they met the Dark-elves in many places, and were befriended by them. …

OM-07.25: To add ‘evil’ seems too much of a liberty for me. I would rather skip the ‘the’ before Dwarves, so that not all Dwarves are specified here.

Melkor/Morgoth: In the insert of OM-06.5 I used Melkor deliberately since we are here recording past events from the time of Utumno. And also in the passage inserted under OM-07.5. Nobaody would worship ‘the Black Foe’ therefore Melkor is the batter name in this specific case. But for the inserts from GA I agree to change it to Morogth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Isn't the Tale of Adanel just that - a tale, vaguely remembered among the descendants of the original Men?

So why put so much weight to it?


I'm saying this because I don't think we should delete the references to Nuin awakening Ermon and Elmir, nor them teaching the other Men language.


Also, a fun fact - if Tu (being a fay in the BoLT) is a Maia, that would fit nicely with this statement in the NoME:

Men awake VY 1075 (and are hidden from other contacts by Melkor)? But Eru independently of Manwë sends messages and messengers to them (and the Elves). That is about 10,800 Sun-years after Elves [awoke] and 15 VYs (or 2,160 SYs) before the attack of the Valar. The Valar do not discover Men (whose centre was far south of Utumno*), and think the removal of Melkor probably sufficient protection: they are not supposed to "meddle" with Men, but only guard them so that they can develop as they should. But they are anxious, especially after they discover that Melkor had already affected the Quendi; and are aware that by no means all of Melkor’s evil associates and forces had been destroyed or captured. They are therefore always sending out emissaries and explorers to Middle-earth during the Captivity of Melkor.

- The Nature of Middle-earth, 'The Awaking of the Quendi', Text A, p. 39 (dating from c. 1959)


Of course, in this text Tolkien had a completely different conception of the timeline of Arda, as well as the duration of the Valian years - but that is in and of itself irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make: which is that Eru sent actual messengers to the OG Men from the very beginning!


*There is also an interesting note to the text by Carl Hostetter which deals with the location of Men's original homeland far south of Utumno, which goes:

Far south and, presumably, far east of Utumno. At one point Tolkien baldly stated that: "The Great Central Land, Europe and Asia, was first inhabited. Men awoke in Mesopotamia" (IX:410).

The reference to the 'IX:410' refers to this passage in Sauron Defeated, 'The Drowning of Anadune', Note 2, p. 410:

"The Great Central Land, Europe and Asia, was first inhabited. Men awoke in Mesopotamia. Their fates as they spread were very various. But the Enkeladim withdrew ever west."

'Enkeladim' here meaning 'Elves'.

[Findegil]

Most of the texts we work with are just tales! For me The Tale of Adanel and the philosophy of Athrabeth would no longer work at all, if Men would have some dealings with other Ainur or incarnates. The Voice is asking them to learn from expirence not from others. And the interpretation of the gift as presented in the Athrabeth seems to me only possible when you can't compare it to the longvety of the Elves or imortility of the Ainur.

Therefore I think Nuin can't wacke Ermon and Elmir and has to leave the newly awoken Men to sameself for a time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Most of the texts we work with are just tales! For me The Table of Adanel and the philosophy of Athrabeth would no longer work at all, if Men would have some dealings with other Ainur or incarnates. The Voice is asking them to learn from expirence not from others. And the interpretation of the gift as presented in the Athrabeth seems to me only possible when you can't compare it to the longvety of the Elves or imortility of the Ainur.

Therefore I think Nuin can't wacke Ermon and Elmir an dhas to leave the newly awoken Men to same self for a time.

Respectfully
Findegil

The text in the NoME doesn't necessarily mean that the original Men had messengers sent to them immediately after their Awakening (especially since the said text outright states that Eru sent messages to the original Men too).


Also, Men have notoriously unreliable memories - especially across multiple generations!

[Findegil]

Sorry, Arvegil145, I lost your line of thought. What is you intention in this case? Or more concrete, what is your proposed change to our text?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Sorry, Arvegil145, I lost your line of thought. What is you intention in this case? Or more concrete, what is your proposed change to our text?

Respectfully
Findegil

I'm proposing that we keep Nuin's awakening of Ermon and Elmir, as well as Nuin's teaching of language to Men, etc. - basically, almost everything that's been cut out from 'Gilfanon's Tale'.

And since the ancient history of Men is murky at best (obviously), I don't see any problems with us keeping multiple different accounts of their ancestral past (ala the Tale of Adanel).

Moreover, I don't even see too much contradiction between these accounts, as per my previous reply - but that doesn't actually matter IMO.



Tl;dr - when it comes to origins of Men, I have zero problems with including multiple contradictory accounts (even though I believe they're not as contradictory as they appear to be).