Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

[Findegil]

Kullulin and Silindrin: I agree that we have to do something about these in DoV, with the effect that Ungoliant has drained these sources of light. Since DoV anyhow needs an revision, we could simply keep that in mind, and care for it later. But here is my first go at it:

§58d It is told that even as Fëanor and Fingolfin stood before Manwë, ... And still {Ungoliantë}[Ungoliant] thirsted; and she went to the great Wells of VardaDoV-DV-11<editorial addition even to Cullulin and Silindirn> and drained them<editorial addition all> dry. And as she drank, she belched forth vast vapours, and in their midst she swelled to a shape more huge and hideous than even her most lustful dream had hoped ever to achieve. At last, knowing that the time was short, she hastened away, north, to the tryst that Melkor had made with her, and did not mean to keep.

SM-EX-07.5: It is true that ‘heart of Arda’ in the round earth concept has a special meaning, but that does not make it unusable in the flat earth version, at least in my opinion. I would let it stand. Anyhow it is meant figuratively.

SM-EX-10.9: Well AAm is the later text, that was my reason to use it. But I can see your reason and agree to restore the reading of LQ on the basis that this might be a proposed change that we cannot incoperate because we lake the needed information.

SM-EX-11.1: For me the fact that this attack on the Sun does reappear in such a late version, is rather an argument to include it. Tolkien never abandoned the idea that the sun was less ‘enchanted’ then the Moon and therefore times of moonshine were rather the times for the Elves than the day of full sunshine. In the intermediate interations of the mythology Tolkien brings up some rather week arguments why this should be the case. Thus the re-established attack on and subsequent absent of Árië comes in handy.
About Morogth it is told that he leaves Angband only once; we are neither told for what reason nor for how long. The rest is read into the passage implicit, by our knowledge of the story about Men’s corruption. Anyhow I would think that both corruption of Men and the ravishing Árië were connected in time. And we learn in the ‘Tale of Adanel’ that Morogth was not all the time present at the dwelling place of Men. So he could have the opportunity. (By the way, the fight of Fingolfin against Morgoth is directly before the gate of Angband. Since Fingolfin hammered on that door. I would assume from the latest description of the Nirnaeth that Angabnd had a kind of outwork and that the fight happen inside that outer fortification and with that could be said inside Angband, so that for this occasion Morgoth literary had not to leave Angband.)

SM-EX-11.2: For a (forced) departure from Eä the word ‘death’ is very appropriate as we learn in MT when it speaks about the execution of Morgoth after the War of Wrath.

SM-EX-11.25: Well, if this could only refer to the Last Battle I would agree that it contradicts the Second prophesy, but it could in this case refer to the time after the War of Wrath and Morgoth execution as it is told in MT, were no executioner is explicitly named.

SM-EX-11.3: Even without leaving Angband he could gather spirits out of the void. As we are told in Ósanwe-kenta communication of thought is not restricted by space. And we can be sure that early allies of Melkor lingering in the void would still listen to his call.

SM-EX-11.34: I agree that the grammar is not good. But either the insert from AAm has to go here or we would leave it out. If placed later, it is rendered seens less being out of sequence. What about this:

SM-EX-11.3 <MT; 2 Outline But Melkor gathered in the Void spirits of cold SM-EX-11.32{&c.} and<AAm shadow> and suddenly assailed {it}the Moon, b]SM-EX-11.34[/b] <AAm and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars> {driving}And the attack drove out the {Vala}[Maiar] Tilion. The Moon was thereafter {long}[a] while steerless and vagrant and called Rána{ (neuter)} SM-EX-11.36 <LQ the wayward>.>

SM-EX-11.4: For what reason that ‘again’ is needed? I agree that it might make the stlye better, but that has so far never been an argument.

SM-EX-11.7: A lost battle does make you the loser of a war. In the end Tilion was victorious capturing back the Moon and prevailing in the farther defence of it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

SM-EX-11.1: I agree on this now. Part of my reason for arguing against it is bc i was attached to the published and longstanding myth i suppose.

SM-EX-11.2, 11.25: I think that in these cases, we must be careful using the word "death" about the Valar and Maiar. There is a point made that the Valar do not kill Melkor because he cannot be killed, being divine and immortal. therefore, to refer to the death of Arie in the text without any attention being brought to it seems to be to be entirely inccorect. Similarly, Melkor was not killed after the War of Wrath, he was thrust into the Voids of Ea, as we have in our version of the Tale of Earendil.

SM-EX-11.3, 11.34: I agree, but it is "Maia" not "Maiar" when used in the singular.

SM-EX-11.4: I added it in with consideration of the added bit about the attack on Arie, but if you feel it is simply stylistic, then I understand.

SM-EX-11.7: the way it is written he simply comes back, there is no "recapturing the moon." The two accounts do not reconcile well. In addition, there is in this version no pursuing darkness, yes?

[Findegil]

SM-EX-11.2 & SM-EX-11.25: Okay, we change this as you suggested to:

... The clarity of the Sun's radiance has not been so great since, and something of {magic}[entchantment] has gone from it. Hence it is, and long has been, that the {fairies}[Elves] dance and sing more sweetly and can the better be seen by the light of the Moon - because of the SM-EX-11.23{death}[departure] of {Urwendi}[Árië]. The 'Rekindling of the {Magic}[Entchanted] Sun' refers in part to the Trees and in part to {Urwendi}[Árië].
{Fionwe}[Eönwë]'s {rage}/was anraged/ and {grief.}[griefed] SM-EX-11.25<LT; The Tale of the Sun and the Moon , for he had concieved a great love for that bright maiden long ago, and her loveliness{ now}, when bathed in fire she sate as the radient mistress of the Sun, set him aflame with the eagerness of the {Gods}[Valar].> In the end he will SM-EX-11.28{slay}[stand against] {Melko}[Morogth].>

SM-EX-11.4: Yes, I think the ‘again’ is not really necessary and therefore rather stylistic.

SM-EX-11.7: No, I did not remove ‘though still the pursuing darkness overtakes him at whiles‘. Therefore in the text a fight to recapture the Moon is implicit in the text. Okay we are dealing with an outline. Therefore it would be possible to make this for the sake of clarity a bit more explicit. But do you think that is necessary?

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

SM-EX-11.7: I would think it is, as the recapturing is not implied (it seems to me) and instead feels like two very different accounts being mushed together. I know we do not change for reasons of style, but in this case the attempted narrative is not clear (at least when I read it).

[Findegil]

SM-EX-11.7: Okay, how do you find this:

… But Melkor would make it a time of peril unseen, of fear without form, an uneasy vigil; or a haunted dream, leading through despair to the shadow of Death.>
SM-EX-11.6 <MT; 2 Outline The Sun remained a Lonely Fire, polluted by Melkor, but after the death of the Two Trees}Then Tilion returned to the Moon, SM-EX-11.65 /and drove of the/ SM-EX-11.7 <AAm {Then he assailed Tilion, sending} spirits of shadow that Morogth had send against him{, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars, and}[u]. And so[/b] Tilion was the victor: as he ever yet hath been, though still the pursuing darkness overtakes him at whiles.> {which}[u]The Moon[/b] remained therefore an enemy of Melkor and his servants and creatures of night — and so[u] was[/b] beloved of Elves later{ &c}.>
SM-EX-11.8<AAm §180 But seeing the assault upon SM-EX-11.85<Árië and> Tilion the Valar were in doubt, …

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

This is perfect.

[Findegil]

A few additions froum LT found while working on my draft for The Flight of the Noldor:

… Thus they held vigil in the night of Valinor, and their thought passed back beyond Eä and forth to the End; yet neither power nor wisdom assuaged their grief, and the knowing of evil in the hour of its being. SM-EX-01.1 <LT Now came that grievous news to the {Gods}[Valar] and the other Elves, and at first none believed. Nonetheless the tidings came still unto them, and by many different messengers. Some were of the SM-EX-01.2 Teleri, who had heard the speech of Feanor in the square of {Kor}[Tirion] and had seen the {Noldoli}[Noldor] SM-EX-01.3 prepair to depart thence with all the goods they might convey.> {Neither}Now did {they}Valar mourn more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of all Melkor’s works the most wicked.

… Thus, even as Eru spoke to us, shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'
'And yet remain evil,' quoth Mandos. 'To me shall Fëanor come soon.'>
SM-EX-01.4 <LT {others}Other messengers were of the {Solosimpi}[Teleri], and these brought the dire tidings of the swanships' rape and the dread kinslaughter of the Haven, and the blood that lay on the white shores of {Alqalunte}[Aqualondë].
Lastly came some hotfoot from Mandos who had gazed upon that sad throng nigh the strands of {Amnor}[Araman], and the {Gods}[Valar] knew that the {Gnomes}[Noldor] were far abroad, and Varda and all the Elves wept, for now seemed the darkness black indeed and that more than the outward light of the fair Trees was slain.>
SM-EX-01.5 <LT Ulmo alone came not to the Trees, but went down to the beach of Eldamar, and there he stood gazing into the gloom far out to sea, and he called often with his most mighty voice as though he would draw back those truants to the bosom of the {Gods}[Valar], and whiles he played deep longing music on his {magic}[enchanted] conches, and to him alone, lest it be Varda lady of the stars, was the going of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] a greater grief than even the ruin of the Trees. Aforetime had Ulmo loved the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] very dearly, yet when he heard of their slaughter by the {Gnomes}[Noldor] he grieved indeed but anger hardened not his
heart, for Ulmo was foreknowing more than all the {Gods}[Valar], even than great Manwë, and perchance he saw many of the things that should spring from that flight and the dread pains of the unhappy {Noldoli}[Noldor] in the world, and the anguish wherewith they would expiate the blood of {Kopas}[Aqualondë], and he would that it need not be.>
SM-EX-01.6 <LT Strange is to tell that albeit Aule had loved the {Noldoli}[Noldor] above all the Elves and had taught them all they knew and given them great stores of wealth, now was his heart most turned against them, for he deemed them ingrate in that they had bidden him no farewell, and for their ill deeds among the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] he was grieved to the heart. "Speak not," said he, "the name of the {Noldoli}[Noldor] ever again unto me," and albeit he gave still his love to those few faithful {Gnomes}[Noldor] who remained still SM-EX-01.7{ about his halls}, yet did he name them thereafter "Eldar".
But the {Teleri}[Vanyar] and the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] having wept at first, when the onslaught of the Haven became known to all dried their tears and horror and anguish held their hearts, and they too spake seldom of the {Noldoli}[Noldor], save sadly or in whispers behind closed doors; and those few of the {Noldoli}[Noldor] that remained behind were named the Aulenosse or kindred of Aule, or were taken into the other kindreds, and the {Gnome-folk}[Noldor] {have}had no SM-EX-01.8{place or }name remaining now in all Valinor.> SM-EX-02 <LT Suddenly there {is}was a sound of wings in that place, for {Sorontur}[Sorontar] King of Eagles {is}was come again on strong wings through the dusk, …

Respectfully
Findegil