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Old 10-09-2017, 04:15 PM   #1
Findegil
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I agree to much of this but not to all your changes:

English: I agree to eliminate ‘modern’ following your argument. But as we call our work ‘Translation from the Elvish’ the second might need a small revision only:
Quote:
This version into NA-EX-02.1{'modern'} English, that is forms of NA-EX-02.2{English}[language] intelligible to living users of the English tongue (who have some knowledge of letters, and are not limited to the language of daily use from mouth to mouth) does not attempt to imitate the idiom of {Ælfwine, nor that of} the Elvish which often shows through especially in the dialogue. ...
NA-TI-27: I think we should hold one sentence of what you would skip:
Quote:
NA-TI-27 <QS77 {Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and against her will her love was given to Túrin; but}And Túrin did not perceive what had befallen.{ And being torn in heart Finduilas became sorrowful; and she grew wan and silent.} But Gwindor sat in dark thought NA-EX-53.7 <CoH , and he cursed Morgoth who could thus pursue his enemies with woe, withersoever they might run. …
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Old 09-12-2023, 04:26 AM   #2
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At long last I have made up my mind where to put Mîms Klage:
Quote:
… For a little while they held off the Orcs climbing up the rock, but they had no shelter on the bare summit, and many were shot from below. Most valiant of these was Andróg, who fell NA-SL-02c mortally wounded by an arrow at the head of the outside stair.
Then Túrin and Beleg with the ten men left to them drew back to the center of the summit, where was a standing stone, and making a ring about it they defended themselves until all were slain save Beleg and Túrin, for over them the orcs cast nets. Túrin was bound and carried off; Beleg who was wounded was bound likewise, but he was laid on the ground with wrists and ankles tied to iron pins driven in to the rock. NA-EX-40.5{
}Now the Orcs, finding the issue of the secret stair, left the summit and entered Bar-en-Danwedh, which they defiled and ravaged.<Mîms Klage
Mîms Lament
>{They}The Orcs did not find Mîm, lurking in his caves, and when they had departed from Amon Rûdh Mîm appeared.NA-EX-40.6<Mîms Klage
Under a hill, in a wayless land,
lay a deep hole, …

Long paths he had wandered, homeless and cold,
The Petty-dwarf Mîm, NA-EX-40.7{two hundered}[hundereds of] years old.
All that he had made, the work of his hand,

Mîm spat in the sand and thus he spoke:

Tink-tink-tink, tink-tonk, tonk-tonk, tink!

All the things, that my eyes had seen, … since without them there is little left of him.
So I thought about a right way to store them, … which time had worn and the winds have devastated.
Clap-clip-clatter! … my hoard of memories and bygone years.
Did I sleep long? … spitting on the edge until it shone under the cruel stars in the dark and dreary places.
Thus they took from Mîm all his memories and all the joyful leaps and bounds of his mind, … that drives Men to madness, though they know nothing about it.
But now I am old and embittered, … But Mîm cannot forgive. The embers still smoulder in his heart. Tink-tonk, tonk-tink! No time to think!
>He climbed on the summit, and going to where Beleg lay prostrate and unmoving he gloated over him while he sharpend a knife.
But Mîm and Beleg were not the only living beings on that stony height. Andróg, though himself wounded NA-SL-02.1 to the death, crawled among the dead bodies towards them, and seizing a sword he thrust it at the Dwarf. Shrieking in fear Mîm ran to the brink of the cliff and disappeared: he fled down a steep and difficult goat’s path that was known to him. NA-EX-41b <QS77 And Beleg cried after him: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’> But Andróg putting forth his last strength cut through the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, and so released him; but NA-SL-02.2b{ dying} he said: ‘My hurts are too deep even for your healing.’
The death of Beleg
NA-EX-40.5: Here I removed a paragraph break because inserted the sub-title only one sentence later. We could go without the sub-title and may be even part of the intro, but I would rather keep both. If we use the sub-title, I found this to be the proper place to understand fully where he is coming from.
NA-EX-40.6: As said above we might skip some of the intro, but other wise I see not much to be changed in the text.
NA-EX-40.7: With the uncertainty we have about Mîm history before he meet Túrin, I find it saver to remove the 200 years.
I generally added speech marks to the beginning of Mîms lament and to each following paragraph. This more a question of general editing than of content, but still worth mentioning.
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Old 09-16-2023, 12:10 AM   #3
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Hello. In my version I inserted the Mim's Lament just near the end of the previous chapted. I considered the text as a sort of poetic memory and at the end of the paragraph that Túrin was friendly with him.
I think in your version is this:

Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; NA-TI-11 <Sil77 {For}for Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> {nor did} Túrin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar. Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin did learn /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm’s sack when they had captured him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had at that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>.

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Old 09-18-2023, 02:27 AM   #4
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I think, part of the issue to place Mîms Klage, is that we are unsure of which events it reffers to. If the spitting into the sand is unconnected to the chocking smoke and near vomitting of the line before, then your placement is not that bad. But I would consider putting it in even earlier, so that the freindship with Túrin becomes the result of Mîm's statment in the end, that it is not good that he has such bad relationship to his 'neighnous'.

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Old 10-04-2023, 04:53 PM   #5
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Was this part I bolded from §15 of QS left out on purpose? Seems like a good bit, unless it contradicts something else that was changed that I haven't seen yet.

Quote:
{From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses, the peoples of Hador, and Bëor, and Haleth}; for the sons of Bór, {Boromir}[Borlach], {Borlas}[Borlad], and {Borthandos}[Borthand], who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need, all perished in that battle, and they left no heirs.

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Old 10-05-2023, 12:40 AM   #6
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It was left out not by any contradiction, but rather becaus we used The Grey Annalas as main source for our text, which includes this two passages (so far apart):
Quote:
... They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the Accursed, the leader in treason, and Bor and his sons slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. ...
...
NA-TI-04.8 <GA; §241 Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Bëor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children.
The March of {Maidros}[Maedros] was no more. ...
The only additional information from QS is that Bor's children left no heirs. But it is an information I think we should include. So I would place it thus, even so that is a bit of repetition (which I think is okay in recapitulation of the outcome of the battle):
Quote:
NA-TI-04.8 <GA; §241 Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Bëor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children{.}NA-EX-22.4<QS{From that day the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses, the peoples of Hador, and Bëor, and Haleth}; for the sons of Bór, {Boromir}[Borlach], {Borlas}[Borlad], and {Borthandos}[Borthand], who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need, all perished in that battle, and they left no heirs.>
The March of {Maidros}[Maedros] was no more. ...
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Old 10-05-2023, 07:30 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
The only additional information from QS is that Bor's children left no heirs.
I also think "who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need" is a unique piece of information, even if it can be inferred by the action earlier described. This sentence serves as a final statement on the actions of Men in that battle, and I think it's important to include the sons of Bor explicitly in the list of those who "proved true at need."

Repetition isn't necessarily a bad thing, quite the contrary, when placed far enough apart, it reinforces what is important, not just to the reader but to the sub-creator.

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