Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Time

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

My conclusion was that AAm and LQ were more or less contemporary. In such a case I assumed that a fuller text (and I considered LQ to be the fuller text) could be used instead of a probably slightly younger (AAm).

This is an interesting question. I suppose my opinion is that AAm has priority in terms of facts (i.e. if AAm and LQ contradict each other, AAm is the ‘truth’ for our purposes), but that if LQ tells things in more depth or offers details that AAm doesn’t then, assuming it doesn’t actually contradict AAm, it can be used. Still, to preserve the unity of the text as much as possible, I prefer to use AAm as much as possible - i.e. LQ should really offer some new detail, not just a different phrasing of things, for us to use it.

I don’t think that the full content of the texts should be or can be rejected based on the fact that we have decided to reject the round earth cosmology. Let’s take an example from this actual chapter: We use part of the LT text even so many elements of the story were clearly at variance to what we considered ‘true’, like Laurelin sprouting first, or the story of the planting of the trees, ... now why is that possible? Because we consider that only that parts of the text, that were directly gainsaid by sources of higher priority must be skipped or such parts as are clearly depend on such gainsaid elements. This freedom is given under our rule 3).
Now to MT, here are no contradictions with texts of higher priority. The reason why we do not use this text entirely is a decision following rule 2.b): a change proposed by JRR Tolkien but inadequately documented so that it is deemed unworkable by us. But this decision was up to this point only taken for the round earth cosmology. (And that question might have been the trigger for rule 2.b).)
Your argument as I have understood is, that the changes introduce with MT are only needed to make the round earth cosmology work for the story. And I agree that these changes are needed for the round earth cosmology. But that the round earth cosmology does depend on these changes does not make the change depending on the round earth cosmology. So we have a high priority text not contradicted by a first priority text (LotR, Hobbit, RGEO, AdvTomB) but in an essential feature discarded by us due to the upheaval it would introduce in the project. Does that disqualify all the other features of the text?
I don’t think so. At least we never handle other texts in a similar way.

I agree with almost everything you say here, but maybe I expressed my argument against using MT here poorly. What I am arguing is that the excerpts from MT do depend on the new cosmology. In other words, that it is only because, in the new cosmology, Arda is one solar system among countless others that it makes sense to speak of the possibility of Melkor ruling in other parts of Eä, or of Ainur dwelling in places other than Arda. My argument is that these passages imply a cosmology that is different from the old, flat-earth cosmology that is our ‘truth’. Mind you, this is an argument I’m not fully convinced of myself, though I must say I am leaning toward agreeing with it.

I’m also not sure I agree with one point you make. You seem to say that if a change A was made by Tolkien and another change B followed directly from it and was therefore also made by Tolkien, we can (indeed, must) take up change B even if we have rejected change A as unworkable. As I see it, changes A and B are really two parts of one large change. B is part of the ‘working out’ of A. If Tolkien had made enough changes (B, C, D, etc.) to implement A then A would no longer be ‘unworkable’, and would not fall under rule 2b; but in the absence of sufficient changes, I think we must reject both A and B together. Here, obviously, A and B are the new cosmology and the new account of the Ainur’s actions at the beginning of time.

Now, it’s not always so simple - sometimes it’s hard to tell whether B is a direct consequence of A or a separate change that would have been made even without A. And, if one grants that the MT passages under discussion don’t directly contradict the old cosmology, then this, I feel, is the question that must still be answered.

BoT-17: When I wrote my comments to the changes introduced it was years after compilation of the text. So I didn’t check if this was really new in MT. I fully agree that AAm §21 is similar enough. But if MT is seen as a valid text, than it has higher priority and would be preferable over AAm for such an addition. (If AAm is the basis text the addition is of course obsolete.)

I still tend to think that if two passages give the same details, then the one to be preferred is the one that least chops up Tolkien’s text. But a case could be made that the MT passage does offer a new detail in saying that Oromë went to the uttermost east in the search. I don’t see anything in this passage as depending on the new cosmology, so I think that regardless of our decision on the earlier passages, we are free to use this one if we decide it offers a new detail.

BoT-20: This was moved because the description of Melkor in MT does not fit to this. So I thought that at his first coming to Arda he was the bright and shiny guy he wished to be, but when he entered again, now to fight for his rule of the kingdom of Arda he appeared in that dark and frightening shape.

OK, that makes sense. Here again, I ask myself whether this new element (Melkor loving and desiring light, and therefore taking a bright form initially) in MT II is truly independent of the new cosmology. It could be; or it could have been introduced for no other reason than to motivate Melkor’s ravishing of Árië.

I agree that we have some redundancy here and should amend that. But if the pure §21 of AAm is sufficient I doubt. But that can be checked later.

OK, when you have time, let us know what you think §21 of AAm is missing that should be added and we can discuss it.

BoT-23, -24: Good point. This is one piece from MT that even I cannot really argue to be based on the cosmology change, so I agree we should take the passage from LQ, regardless of what we decide about the other MT excerpts.

About Silpion or Telperion as name given by Lóriën: I do not see any good reason to change this Silpion was still as valid in LQ. Even so Telperion was a more usual name, why should that change the fact that Lóriën invented the name Silpion? Would we create a new factum by changing this? I think we should avoid that.

That’s true. Yes, I agree that “Silpion” can be used there.

Waxing and Waning of the Trees

The redundancy we should eliminate. I observed as well that Yavanna is speaking in a phase were Laurelin waned, but since it could have been half a day later I did not see a problem with this. I at least would like to keep the direct speech of Yavanna in that passage.

I agree that keeping the direct speech of Yavanna would be good, if we can manage it. But the text at it stands very much makes it seem to me as if she is speaking immediately after Laurelin has bloomed, so that what she says doesn’t make sense. Maybe there is a way we can better edit this.

Gathering of the Lights: My issue here is mainly that in no version of the story are there two separate repositories of light associated with each tree. On the contrary, it seems to me that the “vats” or “wells” of Varda replaced the cauldrons from the Lost Tales. Indeed, I would sooner accept naming those vats Silindrin and Kululluin than I would having both the vats and the cauldrons. Retaining the cauldrons as receptacles for the light of the Lamps, but not of the Trees, seems far too great a liberty to me.

I’m not sure myself whether the idea of the salvaged light of the Lamps being used to make the Trees was definitely rejected or just omitted in the relatively briefer LQ and AAm - but I think we must err on the side of omitting it.

As for the Primeval Light of MT, here again I think this is part of the change to the new cosmology, with the new roles of the Sun, the Moon, and the Trees, and the rejection of the Lamps, and cannot be separated from it.

Reckoning of Time: Thanks, I had forgotten that LotR mentions the 144 figure for yén. Of course, one could posit that the 144 year yén is different from the 9.58 year Valian Year, but this would be mere invention. So I agree, we should remove the section on the reckoning of time.

The AAm passage about Valinor being more beautiful I already agreed to move back to its original place. The MT passage (if we decide to use any MT material) is near enough to what Ainulindalë §31 does tell, so that we might combine the two. Especially the first parts of both seem to very close. In both it is made clear that at first the Valar did go to Middle-earth more often, but then stayed more and more in Valinor and left Middle-earth to Melkor.

Do you mean §34 of the Ainulindalë (I don’t see the relevance of §31)? I suppose we could try combining them. However, looking at this again, it strikes me that this extract from MT refers specifically to “toward the end of the Days of Bliss”, which is a point we have not reached in the narrative (indeed, it’s a little hard to say exactly what time it refers to).

[Findegil]

First of all a addition to my last post:
Bot-20: Sometimes it would be better to read more before writing. It is ture that this passage came from much earlier in the text, but none the less it is from a description of the War that destroyed the Lamps and Almaren. The structure in the Ainulindalë is strange enough as already observed earlier. This seems to be a results of Tolkiens frame story. First we have Pengolodh quote the work of Rumil and telling in very short words the first strife (end of §23 and §24) with Melkors flight (end of §24), the Valar taking shape (§25) and Melkors return and taking shape (mid to end of §26) and the Battle after Melkors return which is here call ‘the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda’ (§27). Then follows the interlude with Pengolodh speaking to Ælfwine and vise versa (§28 to §29) but then with Pengolodh speak now free and not quoting from Rumils work the story returns to the first strife that was ended by the flight of Melkor before Tulkas (beginning of §31) continues through the making of the Lamps and Almaren (rest of §31). §32 retells then again Melkors return and the following Battle with the destruction of the Lamps and Almaren.

MT: Then it seems to me, we have to discuss each element in turn. The more I read in the text the more find my self inclined to use elements of it. Like the dome of Varda. And I as well do not fully agree that Arda interpreted as one world amid many is bound to the round earth. I think we have some where a mixed text with both a flat earth and other world around. I will search for it.

BoT-17: I agree to combining the passages.

§21 AAm: Yes I will come back to this.

I’m not sure myself whether the idea of the salvaged light of the Lamps being used to make the Trees was definitely rejected or just omitted in the relatively briefer LQ and AAm - but I think we must err on the side of omitting it.

How so ever, since we seem to agree that the Valar gathered light from the Lamps, as they do that in all version in which the Lamps are included, they have to store it some where. Are we then including the vats earlier? Does not sound right to me, so it might work.

The End of the Days of Bliss: This a difficult question. I will search for an answer.

Who of us is now to produce the combined draft? But probably we both should wait until we cleared the open questions.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Bot-20: Sometimes it would be better to read more before writing. It is ture that this passage came from much earlier in the text, but none the less it is from a description of the War that destroyed the Lamps and Almaren. The structure in the Ainulindalë is strange enough as already observed earlier. This seems to be a results of Tolkiens frame story. First we have Pengolodh quote the work of Rumil and telling in very short words the first strife (end of §23 and §24) with Melkors flight (end of §24), the Valar taking shape (§25) and Melkors return and taking shape (mid to end of §26) and the Battle after Melkors return which is here call ‘the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda’ (§27). Then follows the interlude with Pengolodh speaking to Ælfwine and vise versa (§28 to §29) but then with Pengolodh speak now free and not quoting from Rumils work the story returns to the first strife that was ended by the flight of Melkor before Tulkas (beginning of §31) continues through the making of the Lamps and Almaren (rest of §31). §32 retells then again Melkors return and the following Battle with the destruction of the Lamps and Almaren.

Ah, very well noticed! The account given by Rumil is a bit murky, since it doesn’t mention the Lamps or Almaren by name, but I think you are right that §27 refers to the time when the Lamps were destroyed. So your placement of Melkor taking physical form is correct.

MT: Then it seems to me, we have to discuss each element in turn. The more I read in the text the more find my self inclined to use elements of it. Like the dome of Varda. And I as well do not fully agree that Arda interpreted as one world amid many is bound to the round earth. I think we have some where a mixed text with both a flat earth and other world around. I will search for it.

It looks like the question of what we should and should not use from MT is likely to be a difficult and contentious one. I must say that I am very much disinclined to use the Dome of Varda, but we can discuss that in its proper place.

However, rereading the Ainulindalë and Christopher Tolkien’s discussion of it, I think I find some support for your position regarding Arda as one world among many, for the Ainulindalë D has:

And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable Stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness - as who should take the whole field of Arda as the foundations of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit was more bitter than a needle - or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein.

So the cosmology of Ainulindalë C and D (for they are here almost identical) does already have a vast universe and “innumerable Stars”. Given this, I am more amenable to keeping the first passage from MT II.

How so ever, since we seem to agree that the Valar gathered light from the Lamps, as they do that in all version in which the Lamps are included, they have to store it some where. Are we then including the vats earlier? Does not sound right to me, so it might work.

That’s a fair point, and I’m not really sure what the best approach is here. I do tend to view the vats as replacing the cauldrons, so that the light of the Lamps would indeed be stored in the vats. But I will think about this more.

Who of us is now to produce the combined draft? But probably we both should wait until we cleared the open questions.

Yes, let’s try to clear up some more of the open questions and then one of us (I don’t mind doing it, but also don’t mind if you do it) can produce a new draft.

ArcusCalion, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on these points too before we go too far down the road of producing a new draft.

[ArcusCalion]

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to respond, irl duties and school and all that have kept me somewhat busy these past few weeks.

On the Basic Structure

I agree with Aiwendil that the structure of Findegil's drafts are often very piecemeal, but I am on his side: the more detail the merrier. He and I used to clash very often over stylistic issues I had, so I find sympathy with the issue of choppiness in the drafts. However, what about the AAm text is inherently better or worse than the LQ text?

On the MT questions

The "Arda as a solar system" situation

I feel very strongly that, as you yourself pointed out with the quote from Ainulindale C and D Aiwendil, Tolkien had changed the cosmology from its old concept of "Arda globed amid the Void" to "Arda amid the innumerable stars." This is not a concept necessarily bound up with a round earth cosmology, as Arda is perfectly capable with being bound by the "circles of the world" as described in, say, the Ambarkanta, as well as amid many stars and planets of Ea. I would thus say that, while the term "solar syatem" clearly doesnt apply to the flat-earth/sunless version of the primordial cosmology, Arda is still very much a "planet" in space, with layers of atmosphere and a flat surface (Ambar) but instead of globed amid the Void of nothingness, it is globed amid the vast halls and spaces of Ea. Thus, I was very amenable to Findegil's inclusion of the MT material about the earliest movements of the Valar in the deeps of space, and Melkor's arrival in Arda. It is the fullest account of these events and is not contradictory to any of the latest versions of the flat earth canon.

The "primeval light" of Varda

While in the MT text, the light given to Varda by Iluvatar is clearly meant to be the foundation of the Sun, not the trees, I see no reason to exclude it once the Sun has been removed from the narrative. There are many instances of using the LT in the project, notably in the Ruin of Doriath or Earendil chapters, to add depth while changing the application of the words from their original use. This is, in my opinion, not a very drastic change, as Varda is said to be tied to light intrinsically, and the making of the stars and trees could not be said to have been done without special light. However, that being said, the creation of the Sun later with this light might need revision from Findegil's version, as for Varda to give this light to Arie, it would mean she had some already, and if so, why could she not use it to give light to Arda. It is therefore a difficult question, but one that could be said to be inherent in the mythos as written. If Aule can produce mountains, and Ulmo water, and Manwe air, and Yavanna cause trees to grow, why can Varda not seem to produce light? It would seem that this question went unanswered by Tolkien, and so must remain a logical issue in all versions of our text. Thus, I think overall, it wold be best to include the descriptions of Varda's light, as they do not contradict (by themselves) anything from the latest versions of the flat earth cosmology, even if their original application was different.

the "Dome of Varda"

I can see no real reason not to include this feature, as it is not explicitly tied to the round earth structure. It simply seems to be Tolkien's latest thoughts on the matter. However, the two starmakings of Varda are in the essay on it changed from 1) before Arda, 2) before the elves to 1) before Arda, 2) the dome of Varda. Whether we keep the two original starmakings (as we must) and simply add the Dome as a third (which seems easiest to me) is a very minor point, and I think could be done without much editing or loss of Tolkien's sense.

BoT-17: I think it gives a sense of completeness and detail that AAm lacks, so I am with Fin on including it. That being said, I see the redundancy of the following passage and agree that the two references to the "going to war" should be reduced to one. Aiwendil's version of this combination looks great.

BoT-20: I think the description of Melkor as desirous of Light is not simply born out of the round earth ravishing of Arie story. I think in Tolkien's philosophical considerations of the nature of Melkor and the Valar and Eru, he went into great consideration of the motives of each of these players. The "unfallen" state of Melkor as a being of Light and beauty fits with his later ideas of Melkor beginning with great power and glory and falling into darkness and smallness through self-involved nihilism. I think the brightness of Melkor in the beginning is, in fact, relatively essential to his progression as a character and type of a Satan figure in the mythological structure, and as a motivating and defining character state.

BoT-23, -24: I agree with Fin that the LQ bit should be used, as per MT, so I would combine it thus:

BoT-23 <LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm {In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for} And the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.>

BoT-25, -26: I agree with Aiwendil's changes here, this last paragraph is unnecessary, and the footnote should be used later.

Building of Valinor: I agree with Aiwendil's points here.

Descriptions of the Dwellings of the Valar: I agree that this should be later, as in AAm.

Growth of the Trees: agreed

Names of the Trees: As you have already agreed to use Silpion, I just want to say that I favor Aiwendil's general change of Silpion > Telperion, as Tolkien did himself, but in this and the few other cases in the Sun and Moon story where it is appropriate to use Silpion, I think we should.

Waxing and Waning of the Trees: It seems we are all in agreement that Yavanna's speech should be kept, but the wording issues will no doubt be resolved in one of your drafts which are to come.

Gathering of the Lights: This seems to be the most controversial point in the chapter, as it is a difficult one. If Kullulin/Silindrin are to be removed, then many of the LT descriptions of Valinor need heavy editing, and the Tale of Sun and Moon as well (but this we already know). I think personally that there is no reason to remove them, as it says that the Maiar removed the light from the wells and watered the friths and fields of Valinor with in in AAm, so why is it contradictory to have the cauldrons and the wells of varda? I agree that they are most likely abandoned, but there is nothing against their inclusion alongside the wells. ALternatively, we could simply say the Wells of Varda are the cauldrons, and have them made after the trees, leaving the part about the lack of light for Aule's building out.

Reckoning of Time: This has been resolved already, so I have no further comments.

Joy in Valinor and Twilight in Middle-earth: I agree with everything Aiwendil said for this section.

Phew that was a lot. I hope I have articulated myself well enough on each point.

[Findegil]

BD-12: It seems we a situation of turned tabels. Both of you agree to skip that passage about the reckoning of time but now I have made some caacluclations and might be willing to include it incooperating the 144 YS = 1VY:

§29 BD-11b Thus began the Days of the Bliss of Valinor, and thus began also the count of Time. For the Trees waxed to full bloom and light, and waned again, unceasingly, without change of speed or fullness. Telperion came first to flower, and a little ere he ceased to shine Laurelin began to bud; and again ere Laurelin had grown dim Telperion awoke once more. Therefore the Valar took the time of the flowering, first of Telperion and then of Laurelin, to be for them a Day in Valinor; and the time when each Tree was flowering alone they divided into five hours, each equal to the time of the mingling of their lights, twice in each Day. <LQ {In seven hours the glory of each tree waxed to full and waned again to naught; and each awoke once more to life an hour before the other ceased to shine.} Thus in Valinor twice every day there came a gentle hour of softer light when both Trees were faint and their gold and silver beams were mingled. Telperion was the elder of the Trees and came first to full stature and to bloom; and that first hour in which he shone alone, the white glimmer of a silver dawn, the {gods}[Valar] reckoned not into the tale of hours, but named it the Opening Hour, and counted therefrom the ages of their reign in Valinor. Therefore at the sixth hour of the First Day, and of all the joyous days thereafter until the Darkening, Telperion ceased his time of flower; and at the twelfth hour Laurelin her blossoming. And each day of the {gods}[Valar] in Aman contained twelve hours, and ended with the second mingling of the lights, in which Laurelin was waning but Telperion was waxing.> BD-12 <AAm
Of the {Beginning of Time and its }Reckoning of Time[/i]
§5 Time indeed began with the beginning of Eä, and in that beginning the Valar came into the World. But the measurement which the Valar made of the ages of their labours is not known to any of the Children of Ilúvatar, until the first flowering of Telperion in Valinor. Thereafter the Valar counted time by the ages of Valinor, whereof each age contained one hundred of the Years of the Valar; but each such year was BD-12.1{longer than are nine}[nearly as long as one hundred and forty and four] years under the Sun.
§6 Now measured by the flowering of the Trees there were twelve hours in each Day of the Valar, and BD-12.2{one}[fifteen] thousand of such days the Valar took to be a year in their realm{.}>BD-11.5{There were thus twelve such hours in every Day of the Valar; and one thousand of those Days was held to be a Year}, for then the Trees would put forth a new branch and their stature would increase. BD-12.2 <AAm It is supposed indeed by the Lore-masters that the Valar so devised the hours of the Trees that one hundred of such years so measured should be in duration as one age of the Valar (as those ages were in the days of their labours before the foundation of Valinor). Nonetheless this is not certainly known.
§7 But as for the Years of the Trees and those that came after, one such Year was BD-12.3{longer than nine}[a bit less than one hundred and forty and four] such years as now are. For there were in each such Year BD-12.4{twelve}[one hundred and eighty] thousand hours. Yet the hours of the Trees were each seven times as long as is one hour of a full-day upon Middle-earth from sun-rise to sun-rise, when light and dark are equally divided. Therefore each Day of the Valar endured for four and eighty of our hours, and each Year for BD-12.5{four and eighty}[one million and two hundred thousand and sixty] thousand: which is as much as BD-12.55{three}[fifty-two] thousand and five hundred of our days, and is somewhat BD-12.6{more}[less] than are BD-12.65{nine and one half}[one hundred and forty and three and three quarters] of our years (BD-12.67{nine and one half and eight hundredths and yet a little}[one hundred and forty and three and seven tenths and a little less than four hundredths]).
§8 It is recorded by the Lore-masters that this is not rightly as the Valar designed at the making and ordering of the Moon and Sun. For it was their intention that ten years of the Sun, no more and no less, should be in length as one Year of the Trees had been; and it was their first device that each year of the Sun should contain seven hundred times of sunlight and moonlight, and each of these times should contain twelve hours, each in duration one seventh of an hour of the Trees. By that reckoning each Sun-year would contain three hundred and fifty full days of divided moonlight and sunlight, that is eight thousand and four hundred hours, equalling twelve hundred hours of the Trees, or BD-12.7{one tenth}[the one hundred and fiftieth part] of a Valian Year. But the Moon and Sun proved more wayward and slower in their passage than the Valar had intended, as is hereafter told, and a year of the Sun is somewhat longer than was BD-12.75{one tenth}[the one hundred and fiftieth part] of a Year in the Days of the Trees.
§9 The shorter year of the Sun was so made because of the greater speed of all growth, and likewise or all change and withering, that the Valar knew should come to pass after the death of the Trees. And after that evil had befallen the Valar reckoned time in Arda by the years of the Sun, and do so still, even after the Change of the World and the hiding of Aman; but BD-12.8{ten}[one hundred and forty and four] years of the Sun they account now as but one year, and one thousand but as a century. This is drawn from the Yénonótië of Quennar BD-12.85 : quoth {Pengoloð}[Pengolodh].
§10 It is computed by the lore-masters that the Valar came to the realm of Arda, which is the Earth, five thousand Valian Years ere the first rising of the Moon, which is as much as to say BD-12.9{forty-seven thousands and nine hundred and one}[five-hundred-and-three thousands and ninety] of our years. Of these, three thousand and five hundred (or thirty-three thousand five hundred and thirty of our reckoning) passed ere the measurement of time first known to the Eldar began with the flowering of the Trees. Those were the Days before days. Thereafter one thousand and four hundred and five and ninety Valian Years (or BD-12.95{fourteen thousand of our years and three hundred and twenty-two}[two-hundred-and-fourteen thousand and nine hundred and six and a quarter]) followed during which the Light of the Trees shone in Valinor. Those were the Days of Bliss.>
BD-13<Ainulindale D{Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor,}But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn. ...

LT Descriptions of Valars’ Dwellings: An other question beside the MT-material: Aiwendil posted:

... I place them much later, incorporating them into the passage in AAm that describes (in far less detail) the places where some of the Valar dwell.

Could you guide me to that AAm passage? I can't identify it in your draft nor in th original AAm text. In your draft the LT descriptions are mixed with passages from Ainulindalë D. But that wouldn't suggest such a late placement.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I assume you are refferring to the 144 YS = 1 Year in Aman from the MT text: Aman. I had thought about this as well. It would increase the amount of time before the sun and moon, but as this was Tolkien's plan, I think it might be worth it. If we agree that this is the best solution, then we need to go through the drafts and find every place where we have removed specific dates or amounts of time.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

However, what about the AAm text is inherently better or worse than the LQ text?

I don't think it's inherently better or worse; I just think that, all else being equal, it's desirable to minimize how often we go back and forth between texts. I took AAm rather than LQ as the basis only because AAm exists in a "second phase" (c. 1958) typescript, while LQ in this section only exists in a "first phase" (c. 1951) version.

On the MT Questions

I'm now coming around on the question of the opening section and the "measureless regions" of Ea. The cosmology in the Ainulindale C and D already matches this conception, which shows that this feature is independent of the changed cosmology of Myths Transformed.


On the other hand, I'm still rather convinced that the Primeval Light and, most especially, the Dome of Varda, are part and parcel of the Myths Transformed cosmology, and that in rejecting the new story of the sun and moon we must reject them as well. I think this is clearest in the case of the Dome of Varda. The Dome is introduced thus in MT III:

What happened in Valinor after the Death of the Trees? Aman was 'unveiled' - it had been covered with a dome (made by Varda) of mist or cloud down through which no sight would pierce nor light. This dome was lit by stars — in imitation of the great Firmament of Eä. This now rendered Valinor dark except for starlight [i.e. after the death of the Trees]. It was removed and Aman was lit by the Sun - its blessing was thus removed. (Melkor's defilement of the Sun must thus precede the Two Trees which had light of Sun and Stars before Melkor [?tainted] it - or the Trees [?could ?would] be lit by light before the [?Turbulence] of Melkor.)

The function of the dome here is clearly to prevent the light of the defiled Sun from shining in Valinor, and thus allow the image of Valinor lit by the Trees to remain part of the mythos despite the change whereby the Sun already exists. Christopher Tolkien states this plainly:

The Dome of Varda must have been contrived after the ravishing of Árië by Melkor, in order to keep out the Sun's polluted light; and Aman was lit beneath the Dome by the Two Trees.

The Dome of Varda arose entirely as a consequence of the decision that the Sun must have existed from the beginning, as a way of preserving a feature of the mythology (i.e. Valinor lit by the Trees) that Tolkien wanted to preserve. Without the new story of the Sun, I can see no justification for retaining the Dome.

The “Primeval Light” also seems to me to have been introduced as a direct consequence of the new story of the Sun. That, at least, would again appear to be Christopher Tolkien’s view:

But on the other hand, it is an essential idea that the light of the Trees was derived from the Sun before it was 'tainted'. A resolution of this conflict may be found (reading 'could', not 'would', in the last phrase) in the idea that the light of the Trees was an unsullied light preserved by Varda from a time before the assaults of Melkor.

That is, the new story, wherein Melkor defiles the Sun, presents the problem of where the unsullied light of the Trees came from. This was solved by inventing the Primeval Light that Varda had kept. Without the new story, that problem does not arise, and so no solution is necessary.

BoT-23, -24: I think the LQ and AAm extracts still slightly contradict each other, as they ascribe the failure to overcome Melkor to different things. If we agree that the explanation from LQ is to be preferred, since it agrees with MT, then I think we need remove the AAm (BoT-24) extract completely.

Names of the Trees: As you have already agreed to use Silpion, I just want to say that I favor Aiwendil's general change of Silpion > Telperion, as Tolkien did himself, but in this and the few other cases in the Sun and Moon story where it is appropriate to use Silpion, I think we should.

After agreeing to use “Silpion” here, I find myself doubting it again. In LT, the names given by the Lorien and Yavanna are afterward the usual names for the Trees (even if they receive other names in addition). If we retain “Silpion”, though, then we are inventing the fact that the original name given by Lorien was later for some reason displaced as the usual name, which seems a bit odd. So I am, after all, still tempted to change “Silpion” to “Telperion” here.

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Gathering of the Lights: This seems to be the most controversial point in the chapter, as it is a difficult one. If Kullulin/Silindrin are to be removed, then many of the LT descriptions of Valinor need heavy editing, and the Tale of Sun and Moon as well (but this we already know). I think personally that there is no reason to remove them, as it says that the Maiar removed the light from the wells and watered the friths and fields of Valinor with in in AAm, so why is it contradictory to have the cauldrons and the wells of varda? I agree that they are most likely abandoned, but there is nothing against their inclusion alongside the wells. ALternatively, we could simply say the Wells of Varda are the cauldrons, and have them made after the trees, leaving the part about the lack of light for Aule's building out.

I’ve been thinking about this, and for me it just keeps coming back to the fact that no Tolkien text has two separate sets of receptacles for the light, so that if we include both the cauldrons and the wells, we are inventing a fact about Valinor that is not supported anywhere. I see two options here: 1. leave ambiguous the place where the light is stored when it is gathered to Valinor, or 2. completely replace the cauldrons with the vats and have the light stored there when it is gathered. Looking at LQ and AAm, I don’t see any statement as to when Varda’s vats were made; they are not mentioned until after the Trees are made, but they could well have been originally made to hold the light that was gathered from the ruins of the Lamps. So my inclination is to go with option 2, which also allows us to retain more of LT by changing the cauldrons to wells. One might even wonder if perhaps we could retain the names “Kullulin” and “Silindrin” for them, though that might be a step too far.

BD-12: I’m extremely hesitant to simply alter the math here to get a number close to 144.

Actually, the more I look into this issue, the more confusing it seems to become.

First, in AV and AB (c. 1930), and retained in AV 2 and AB 2 (mid to late 1930s), the Valian year is stated to be equivalent to ten years.

In the drafting for what became Appendix D, given in HoMe XII, the Eldar are said to reckon in yéni, one of which is equivalent to a century, 100 years of the sun. This was written in 1949 or 1950.

Then in AAm as originally written (around 1950-1952), the Valian year was again said to be 10 years (I had not really noted this until now). This was emended such that the Valian Year (based on the waxing and waning of the Trees) was equivalent to 3,500 solar days, or about 9.582 solar years. Another thing I hadn’t noted earlier is that this whole passage on the reckoning of time was marked to be removed from AAm and transferred to the Tale of Years - which indeed it was, being included (with a few minor changes, but nothing affecting the math) in two manuscripts of the Tale of Years.

Then in the text published as Appendix D to The Lord of the Rings in 1955, the yén is stated to be 144 years of the sun rather than 100 that it was in the draft.

I find it very doubtful that the yén/Valian year was changed from 10 years to 100 years then back to 10 years and then to 9.582 years and finally to 144 years. It seems clear to me, instead, that appendix D with its 100 -> 144 figure and the Annals with their 10 -> 9.582 figure are talking about different things. That is, at least up to the mid-1950s, the yén and the “Valian year” were not synonymous. Note that the appendix is speaking only of the Eldarin calendar, while the annals (at least in the elaborate passage in AAm) are talking about the reckoning of the Valar. These two systems need not be assumed to be identical! (And indeed, I think that what we can conclude from the passages mentioned above is that they were not identical).

Now, in MT XI Tolkien gives a different explanation for the Valian year in reference to the rate of change perceived by the Valar, and in a related note on the proposed much-expanded chronology, he wrote “144 Sun Years = 1 Valian Year”. Here, it would seem, the Eldarin yen of Appendix D and the Valian year of the annals have been identified with each other. Christopher Tolkien sees this as directly tied to the new cosmogony:

It will be seen that, as a consequence of the transformation of the 'cosmogonic myth', a wholly new conception of the 'Valian Year' had entered. The elaborate computation of Time in the Annals of Aman (see pp. 49-51, 59-60) was based on the 'cycle' of the Two Trees that had ceased to exist in relation to the diurnal movement of the Sun that had come into being - there was a 'new reckoning'. But the 'Valian Year' is now, as it appears, a 'unit of perception' of the passage of the Time of Arda, derived from the capacity of the Valar to perceive at such intervals the process of the ageing of Arda from its beginning to its end.

I think we must reject this new conception for two reasons. First, because, as Christopher notes, it is a consequence of the new cosmology, and second because the 144 year figure is tied to a projected major revision of the chronology (itself related to the new cosmology), greatly enlarging the time between the awakening of Men and the time of the ‘great tales’ of Beren, Túrin, et al.

My inclination, then, is to either retain the 9.582 figure, on the assumption that Eldarin yéni and Valian years are different units, or to remove the whole passage and leave things ambiguous.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Could you guide me to that AAm passage? I can't identify it in your draft nor in th original AAm text. In your draft the LT descriptions are mixed with passages from Ainulindalë D. But that wouldn't suggest such a late placement.

Sorry, I meant Ainulindalë D, not AAm. In any case, I think we are agreed on putting the descriptions of the Valar’s dwellings from LT here, correct?