2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[ArcusCalion]

This first paragraph by Fin looks good. I think that the walls of the world, as shown by Aiwendil, are actually enclosing Arda. Therefore, the issue lies in the confusion of the Void with the Spaces of Ea, and I think now that such a distinction is less material her than needs to be. We could change it, or eliminate it though, in an effort to formalize a cosmological system.

For your Silindirin addition Fin, "Amidmost of" should be changed to "Within." I.E. the "of" should be removed too. The "within" should also be replaced by "amid," not "amidmost." I also agree about adding in Murmuran, but then we must have a sentence that calls the Gardens Lorien.

For the Nienna bit I actually decided to do it differently.

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless mourning,} sorrows and {blind} grief, [pity and endurance in hope]. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was {one yet wider and more dark than Vê}[west of West], and she {too} named it {with her own name, calling it} Fui. {Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.}>

[Aiwendil]

VT-EX-30.1: I suppose I'm fine with leaving Arie(n)'s allegiance unstated. I think I prefer 'Arien' over 'Arie' for the etymological reason I mentioned.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I'm not so sure about this. It's true that we don't have any definite statement that the gardens of Lorien and Vana do not border Ezellohar. But my impression of Valinor has always been one of a much larger region than that would suggest. Still, I suppose one could quibble about what exactly 'near to Ezellohar' means. I had pictured them being within sight of Ezellohar, but perhaps 'near' could mean miles away.

In any case, if we do add these descriptions back in, I think we need to eliminate the statements that the pools are disturbed only when it is time to 'water' the Trees, since AAm has the Maiar drawing from them to bring light to frith and field throughout Valinor.

VT-LT-06: I had been assuming that 'Lorien' replaced 'Murmuran' as the name of Irmo's dwelling. However, 'Murmuran' seems to refer to his house, while 'Lorien' refers to his lands/gardens as a whole. So I suppose 'Murmuran' could stay unless we reject it on linguistic grounds.

VT-LT-11: I think Findegil's suggestion is good.

VT-LT-13: I wonder whether we're justified in taking what was Nienna's hall and giving it to Mandos as well. Logically, what should come here would be a description of Vaire's hall, since the original is describing the neighbouring dwellings of Mandos and his wife. But the description is obviously unsuited to Vaire. Nor does it make much sense to retain it for Nienna.

I do seem to vaguely recall a statement somewhere in the post-LotR writings that Mandos contained separate halls for Elves and Men. Can either of you remind me where that is found? If that's indeed the case, then perhaps we do have justificiation for keeping the description of Fui's hall, even though Fui is no longer there.

Nonetheless, I do still wonder whether the rather 'primitive' description of the hall, with a ceiling of bat-wings (!) is still appropriate in the context of the later Legendarium. Actually, I am still for the same reason somewhat uneasy about most of the LT additions to this chapter.

Relatedly, it feels a little off to me that the vivid description of Mandos's halls here make no mention of the only two facts told of them in the Valaquenta: that they widen as the ages pass and that their walls are covered with Vaire's tapestries.

Omar and Nieliqui: I see no problems with these names phonologically, nor with Omar's other name, Amillo. I do wonder, though, whether Nieliqui can still be a "little maiden" if she is no longer the daughter of Orome and Vana.

VT-EX-39/VT-LT-14: I'm not sure I see a clear motivation for moving the passage from the Valaquenta to here. There are, after all, other bits of description of the Valar's dwellings in the Valaquenta, and I don't think it's a problem if the descriptions here are not comprehensive.

[ArcusCalion]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: We actually have a definite statement that the gardens of Lorien do border Ezellohar:

It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens wandered marvelously about, winding nigh to the feet of Silpion whose shining lit them strangely.

"nigh to the feet of Silpion" means near Ezellohar. If Lorien is near Ezellohar, then I see no reason that we cannot make the logical leap that Vana's Bower is as well.

As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled."

VT-LT-06: I would do the Lorien bit like this:

VT-LT-06 <LT {Lóriën too} [Irmo] dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Murmuran, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens[, which he called Lóriën,] wandered marvelously .....

This way we can keep the sense of it. If we want we can change Lorien -> Irmo for the rest of the chapter when referring to the person, but I think we do not need to. In the Valaquenta it is already said that he is most often referred to by the name of his dwelling, so it is a simple in-universe fact.

VT-LT-13: The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:"

Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves; and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whether they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.

All the same, I do agree with the idea that the "bat's wings" is a bit much... But if we are to keep all the descriptions (which I think we should) then we must keep this as well. Imagine he means carved bats, or something else more poetic. The details about them in the Valaquenta are indeed lacking here. We could repeat them again, or simply leave them out. Either way I think is fine. The fact that they widen and are covered with tapestries is already told to the reader in the Valaquenta, so the exclusion of these facts here does not render the previous description invalid, it simply adds the new elements to it.

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I agree with Aiwendil that we do not need to take this out of the Valaquenta. However, I would like an opinion on the edit I did to the Lost Tales paragraph by melding some wording from the Valaquenta.

VT-EX-30.1: I respectfully see no reason to leave her allegiance unknown when it is stated in the source document. If we are rejecting the story of the light, we are to use AAm and LQ as the sources for this. This would put Arien in the role of Vana's servant. However, this would not preclude the Light of Varda being given to her, as she still steers the Sun. On the subject of her name, I am inclined to go to Arien myself, since it makes more linguistic sense, while Arie / Azie seems more like Tolkien trying to make a new name in the Valarin.

[Aiwendil]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: Yeah, I suppose it is plausible for them to be within the gardens of Vana and Lorien and still near Ezellohar. It still feels a little - I don't know, too convenient, perhaps. But that's just a feeling, not an argument.

As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled."

That would probably work.

VT-LT-06: Since we've already told in the Valaquenta that his right name is Irmo but that he is called Lorien after his gardens, I don't think we need to repeat it here. So I'd opt rather for:

VT-LT-06 <LT Lóriën {too} dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Murmuran, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens wandered marvelously .....

VT-LT-13:

The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:"

Ah, that's right; thanks. My concern now is that the statement in "Of Men" expresses this proposition with uncertainty ("some say . . .") - therefore I hesitate very much as to whether we can make a certain statement. So I'm still tempted to delete the statement about the fate of men here. We could perhaps instead add doubt to this passage as well, something like:

VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}[his] black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither[, some say,] came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I don't know, I think we'd be taking a great liberty by changing the clouds of despair to clouds of hope. Not least because a "cloud of despair" is a common metaphor and a "cloud of hope" isn't.

VT-EX-30.1: My preference would also be to keep her explicitly a Maia of Vana, but I don't feel particularly strongly about it.

[Findegil]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: "seldom" does solve the issue for Silindirin:

... and {Lórien}[Lóriën] used them much in his enchantments. VT-LT-06.5 {Amidmost of}[Within] those pleasances was set {within}[amid] a ring of shadowy cypress towering high that deep {vat}[well] {Silindrin}[Silindirin]. There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered {never}[seldom] to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.>
VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, ...

But not for Culullin. What about:

... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Culullin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13b was {none}[not much] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

VT-LT-06: I agree to Aiwendils last suggestion.

VT-LT-13: Since Beren was meet by Lúthien in Mandos, it can not be the coming of Men to Mandos that is in question but the hall (in LT named Fui). I don't see that the hall described fits the later Nienna's dwelling place. So what about this:

VT-LT-13c<LT{The}And some said that there was another hall {that she loved best was}, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}Namo’s black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: Okay, we leave the hall of Nienna in the Valaquenta. But I would as ArcusCalion like to have a statement about Nienna here, so I agree to Aiwendil that clouds of pity and endurance in hope does not work. What about:

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless} mourning, sorrows and {blind} grief, [but those who hearken to Nienna learn pity, and endurance in hope].

VT-EX-30.1: Okay, if both of you feel that Ariën should be a maiden of Vána then she will be in our version. And by the way, Ariën will be here name.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

VT-LT-11.7: How about:

... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Cululin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet was {none}[little] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

VT-LT-13: I think Findegil's last suggestion is good.

VT-LT-14: I can certainly agree to Nienna still distilling tears, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself about the clouds, and it seems very awkward to me to repeat a phrase directly from the Valaquenta here. I'm not sure I have a solution, though, without dropping Nienna from the descriptions here.

[ArcusCalion]

Agreed to everything so far, and Aiwendil's suggestion for the Cululin edit looks good.

VT-LT-14: I see no real issue with repeating from the Valaquenta, and I think that something must be said about her in this list, as she is one of the most important ones. As it is, the only ones who have nothing said here about their dwellings are Vaire and Este, the two least important of the Valar. Nienna is much more important, and I think to leave her out would be worse than repeating something small. I might even do more:

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless mourning,} sorrows and {blind} grief, <Vala but those who hearken to Niënna learn pity and endurance in hope>. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was {one yet wider and more dark than Vê}<Vala west of West, upon the borders of the world>, and she {too} named it {with her own name, calling it} Fui. {Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.}>