2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[Aiwendil]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: Yeah, I suppose it is plausible for them to be within the gardens of Vana and Lorien and still near Ezellohar. It still feels a little - I don't know, too convenient, perhaps. But that's just a feeling, not an argument.

As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled."

That would probably work.

VT-LT-06: Since we've already told in the Valaquenta that his right name is Irmo but that he is called Lorien after his gardens, I don't think we need to repeat it here. So I'd opt rather for:

VT-LT-06 <LT Lóriën {too} dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Murmuran, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens wandered marvelously .....

VT-LT-13:

The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:"

Ah, that's right; thanks. My concern now is that the statement in "Of Men" expresses this proposition with uncertainty ("some say . . .") - therefore I hesitate very much as to whether we can make a certain statement. So I'm still tempted to delete the statement about the fate of men here. We could perhaps instead add doubt to this passage as well, something like:

VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}[his] black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither[, some say,] came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I don't know, I think we'd be taking a great liberty by changing the clouds of despair to clouds of hope. Not least because a "cloud of despair" is a common metaphor and a "cloud of hope" isn't.

VT-EX-30.1: My preference would also be to keep her explicitly a Maia of Vana, but I don't feel particularly strongly about it.

[Findegil]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: "seldom" does solve the issue for Silindirin:

... and {Lórien}[Lóriën] used them much in his enchantments. VT-LT-06.5 {Amidmost of}[Within] those pleasances was set {within}[amid] a ring of shadowy cypress towering high that deep {vat}[well] {Silindrin}[Silindirin]. There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered {never}[seldom] to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.>
VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, ...

But not for Culullin. What about:

... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Culullin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13b was {none}[not much] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

VT-LT-06: I agree to Aiwendils last suggestion.

VT-LT-13: Since Beren was meet by Lúthien in Mandos, it can not be the coming of Men to Mandos that is in question but the hall (in LT named Fui). I don't see that the hall described fits the later Nienna's dwelling place. So what about this:

VT-LT-13c<LT{The}And some said that there was another hall {that she loved best was}, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}Namo’s black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: Okay, we leave the hall of Nienna in the Valaquenta. But I would as ArcusCalion like to have a statement about Nienna here, so I agree to Aiwendil that clouds of pity and endurance in hope does not work. What about:

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless} mourning, sorrows and {blind} grief, [but those who hearken to Nienna learn pity, and endurance in hope].

VT-EX-30.1: Okay, if both of you feel that Ariën should be a maiden of Vána then she will be in our version. And by the way, Ariën will be here name.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

VT-LT-11.7: How about:

... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Cululin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet was {none}[little] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

VT-LT-13: I think Findegil's last suggestion is good.

VT-LT-14: I can certainly agree to Nienna still distilling tears, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself about the clouds, and it seems very awkward to me to repeat a phrase directly from the Valaquenta here. I'm not sure I have a solution, though, without dropping Nienna from the descriptions here.

[ArcusCalion]

Agreed to everything so far, and Aiwendil's suggestion for the Cululin edit looks good.

VT-LT-14: I see no real issue with repeating from the Valaquenta, and I think that something must be said about her in this list, as she is one of the most important ones. As it is, the only ones who have nothing said here about their dwellings are Vaire and Este, the two least important of the Valar. Nienna is much more important, and I think to leave her out would be worse than repeating something small. I might even do more:

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless mourning,} sorrows and {blind} grief, <Vala but those who hearken to Niënna learn pity and endurance in hope>. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was {one yet wider and more dark than Vê}<Vala west of West, upon the borders of the world>, and she {too} named it {with her own name, calling it} Fui. {Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.}>

[ArcusCalion]

I actually have another point I just saw. In the mater of elvish reincarnation, this LT passage about the fate of Men is actually surprisingly applicable:

Few are they and happy indeed for whom at a season doth Nornore the herald of the Gods set out. Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Valmar, dwelling in the houses of the Gods until the Great End come. Far away are they from the black mountains of the North or the misty plains of Arvalin, and music and fair light is theirs, and joy.

If we edit it like so:

{Few are they and happy}Happy indeed are they for whom at a season doth {Nornore}[Eönwë] the herald of the Gods set out. Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Val[i]mar, dwelling in the {houses}[land] of the {Gods}[Valar] until the Great End come. Far away are they from the black mountains of the North or the misty plains of {Arvalin}[Araman], and music and fair light is theirs, and joy.

This is a pretty accurate encapsulation of elvish reincarnation, with the addition that Eonwe brings them back into life. Should we include it here, or at all?

[Findegil]

VT-LT-11.7: Agreed.

VT-LT-14: It seems our opinions are fare sundered. Let's sort the discussion:
1. Mentioning Nienna at this point: We all agree that it would be good to mention her, but the only thing we agreed upon so fare are the destilling of tears.

2. The clouds of grief: ArcusCalion and I find this acceptable, but Aiwendil has a problem with this.

3. The hall in LT called Fui: Aiwendil and I agree that this should in our version be a description the special hall in Mandos in which Námo gathers the fëa of Men. But ArcusCalion would like to use the description for the dwelling of Nienna.

4. Snipets of Valaquenta used here again or moved to here: Aiwendil is complete against it, ArcusCalion would repeat the passages in question, and I would move them. In the end Aiwendil's point of view is the safest and has to rule. I search the older version of the former chapter "Of the Valar": But what is in there is either not useable or virtually the same as in the Valaquenta.

I have no solution ready for these points, but it might be helpful to sort them.

LT passage about the fate of Men: This is for sure a no go. On the one hand I don't think the passages realy fit the rehousing of Elves, since we are told that Manwe was the one to give the Elves the new boddy and it would be a case changing the sense of Tolkiens text greatly with out changing the words over much - for sure that is not wanted.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I would say that Fui is not a requirement for me. I do not feel too strongly about dropping it. As for the description, I certainly do not want to use it for Nienna, I removed that part in my suggestion. I would say that we cannot move the Valaquenta passages without real good reason, which we do not have. I think small repetition is harmless and the best solution to the issue.

As for the Fate of Men passage you are right, I just figured I'd throw it out there.

Another side note, I think the chapter should end on a more final note than the description of Nienna's hall, so perhaps we could take up this LT sentence as a way to close out the chapter:

VT-LT-16 <LT Therefore {is}was Valinor {now} built, and there {is}was great peace there, and the {Gods}[Valar] in joy, for {those} quarrelsome spirits {dwell}dwelt not {much} among them, and {Melko comes}Melkor came not nigh.>