2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[ArcusCalion]

I would say that Fui is not a requirement for me. I do not feel too strongly about dropping it. As for the description, I certainly do not want to use it for Nienna, I removed that part in my suggestion. I would say that we cannot move the Valaquenta passages without real good reason, which we do not have. I think small repetition is harmless and the best solution to the issue.

As for the Fate of Men passage you are right, I just figured I'd throw it out there.

Another side note, I think the chapter should end on a more final note than the description of Nienna's hall, so perhaps we could take up this LT sentence as a way to close out the chapter:

VT-LT-16 <LT Therefore {is}was Valinor {now} built, and there {is}was great peace there, and the {Gods}[Valar] in joy, for {those} quarrelsome spirits {dwell}dwelt not {much} among them, and {Melko comes}Melkor came not nigh.>

[gondowe]

I have to review quietly all the text but lets go start with a little thing.
In VT-LT-03.5, shouldn´t be deleted the allusions to spells and magic?
Greetings

[ArcusCalion]

This actually brings up an issue we have not discussed with Aiwendil, and I meant to comment on, but had forgotten. Fin and I, in our editing, have been replacing the word "magic," since Tolkien expressed distaste for the word, and equated it with an evil power. In Lord of the Rings, Galadriel expresses no knowledge of what is meant by magic when Sam asks her, and so I think that we should avoid the use of the word, at least whenever it does not refer to the work of Morgoth. Spells, however, we have agreed to keep, as also enchantments, since spells are referenced in LotR by Gandalf in a positive way, and "enchantments" has a good connotation. Wherever "magic" appears, I replace it, usually with something like "power." That is what I used in the Valimar segment, but in the Aule's Hall description, I used "cunning." I cannot remember any of the others off the top of my head, but they are all fairly straightforward.

[Findegil]

A more general question: Is it “Nienna” or “Niënna” that we use? And in the same direction is it “Lórien” or “Lóriën”?

I will give VT-LT-14 another go:

VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that {Vefantur}[Námo] and {Fui}[Vairë] his wife and his sister Nienna of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the northward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh {Arvalin}[Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns … hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

Wickedness
VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears>. VT-LT-15 <Q30 She dwells alone. Pity is in her heart, and mourning and weeping come to her; shadow is her realm and her throne hidden. For her halls are west of West, nigh to the borders of the World and the Darkness>[u].[/b]

That is near to the passage we used in the Valaquenta but not exactly the same:

Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Vala-04.3 Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.

VT-LT-04: We have in that addition from LT an occurrence of Outer Lands. But the change to Middle-earth is not that easy. The passage made it in that wording into Sil77. I suggest:

But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the {Outer }Lands[ of Middle-earth]. For his throne was set ...

magic: I have looked that up more generally, and if we want to eliminate the word when ever the Valarrian or Elvish 'magic' is meant, we will get much more problematic cases in the poems. But I am willing to go that way.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I use Niënna and Lóriën, as I thought those were the latest versions of the names? Similarly to Ariën.

VT-LT-14: Omg this is absolutely perfect! I approve of this 100%. Aiwendil,thoughts?

This OuterLands-> Lands of Middle-earth looks good, good catch!

I have actually gone through it and replaced "magic" in all occurrences in my copies of the drafts. I could go through again and see what I did at each occurrence. It was not too difficult to do.

[Aiwendil]

VT-LT-14, 15: Findegil's last suggestion works for me.

VT-LT-04: I don't think changing "Outer Lands" is necessary in this instance. Here, it refers to the lands outside Valinor, including Middle-earth. The problematic instance was one where it was used to mean the lands beyond Middle-earth, including Valinor.

Magic: I don't think I'm in favour of replacing every instance of good 'magic'. The closest analogue is our elimination of 'gods', but there is a good deal more precedent for Tolkien removing that word.

On the diacritics: A quick investigation seems to show that Tolkien's latest usage was to include the trema in Niënna and Lóriën. By analogy, I think we are safe using Ariën.

[Findegil]

Magic: When I looked up the occurrences in all our text, I could discern a clear trend that the older the basis text is the more often the word “magic” is used (the same is true for “Gods” as well). This together with the passage in LotR where Galadriel connected the word with the deceits of the enemy makes me at least cautious about a massive usage.

VT-LT-16: I like the idea of a closing sentence to the chapter, but I have some reservation about the quarrelsome spirits not dwelling among them. The reference was to Makar and Meassa. But these “Melkor party” is removed from our version. So I would edit the sentence differently:

VT-LT-16 <LT Therefore {is}was Valinor {now }built, and there {is}was great peace there, and the {Gods}[Valar] in joy, for {those quarrelsome spirits dwell not much among them, and Melko}[Melkor] {comes}came not nigh.>

On the diacritics: Okay I will take up general changes of {Nienna}[Niënna]; {Fui}[Niënna] and {Lorien}[Lóriën]; {Lórien}[Lóriën]; the spelling “Loriën” is not found in our text so fare.

Respectfully
Findegil