Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think you and G55 are looking at this through the lens of your own knowledge. Though the Mouth does mention the possibility that Frodo's "errand was one that you did not wish to fail", that's only in passing. I see no hint that he had any idea it was of *crucial* importance. It's Frodo *himself* whom he seems to think is the real prize.

In other words, in his ignorance he chooses *the wrong thing* to bluff over.

You may have a point about this. If he believes the hobbits (however many of them there are!) are there as spies, well, so what? The Nazgul are aware now, so there's no chance of them getting back out the way they came - and anyway, Aragorn's army is there. What can a spy or two in the heart of Mordor do to prevent their immanent destruction?

Well... quite a lot, as it turned out.

Zigûr - so we could have as many as five messages from the Tower to Lugbúrz, arriving spectacularly out-of-sequence. Let's see if I can reconstruct the timeline:

13th
Late in the day (I think? Sam says he thinks Frodo's been captive for a day or so, and they escape on the night of the 14th/15th), Frodo is taken captive. Shagrat had orders to send a message as soon as the prisoner's belongings had been checked; assuming he did so, it probably left that evening or the next morning. Message 1 - prisoner taken, list of belongings. Checking the timeline, it takes Frodo and Sam about four days to cover the distance; I would guess an orc could manage it in three, or two at a push.

14th
Fighting breaks out in the Tower over Frodo's belongings. Given Gorbag's comments earlier - 'If there's any game, me and my lads must be in it.' - and Shagrat's comments about him, it seems likely he's the one who started it.

Late in the day (or rather the night), Sam breaks past the Watchers, setting off the alarm in the Tower. This may telepathically inform Sauron and/or the Nazgûl - the latter would explain something a bit later. Message 2 - security breach.

Message 2 is received immediately. Sauron knows something is going on (but not what).

Sam battles his way through the Tower and finds Frodo. Shagrat flees the Tower and heads to Lugbúrz, carrying Frodo's belongings with him. Message 3 - fighting in the Tower, Frodo's belongings, Sam's appearance.

15th
Frodo and Sam leave the Tower, shattering the Watchers and potentially alerting Sauron or Morgul. Message 4 - catastrophic security breack. A moment later, a Winged Messenger comes screeching down out of the sky. What was it doing there? How about responding to the break-in alarm the previous night? It could have been circling overhead, waiting to see what would happen. This would partially confirm Message 2 as happening, which would confirm Message 4.

Message 4 is received immediately. Sauron knows the Tower has been fully breached, and may know that Elvish art was involved (depending on the detail levels).

Whatever the case, the Nazgûl would certainly inform Sauron as soon as possible, which means very soon (one way or another). Message 5 - fall of the Tower, guard almost entirely dead.

Message 5 is received that morning. Sauron knows the Tower has fallen, but he still doesn't know why!

16th
Message 1 probably arrives at Lugbúrz on this day (if it was ever sent); Sauron probably kills the messenger, because who wants to hear 'we've caught a prisoner' after already knowing that everyone's dead? The mention of hobbits probably intrigues him - particularly if he knows exactly how the Witch-King died (which he might). Think of all the high-level deaths the hobbits have been involved in! Since around the fall of Dol Guldur, they and the people with them have killed a Dragon, a Balrog, and the Lord of the Nazgûl, and have been part of the downfall of Saruman. And it was one of their ilk that had His Ring for all those centuries...

17th
Message 5 is probably received early on this day. What does Shagrat say, as he runs breathless into the Dark Tower? If Message 1 never happened (it's possible Gorbag killed the messenger - we know from Snaga that Gorbag’s swine got to the gate first, and none of ours got out), then he probably leads with 'we caught a prisoner', but he's not going to be able to hide the fact that the Tower has fallen. If he even tries - so much the worse for him. Sauron already has at least one message about the fall, and up to three.

So what did Sauron find out from him? We know that the first story Shagrat gave was 'shining elf-warrior', and that this was believed long enough to be passed on to the police (as it were). Could this have been the point where Sauron summoned him directly? If Sauron spoke to him first, then we have to assume he lied to the Dark Lord, which (as Kuruharan says) seems a little far-fetched.

Now that he is in the presence of Sauron, Shagrat reveals everything - the presence of two hobbits (I will admit that the possibility of his words being vague enough to imply only one is... remote), and the fighting between the guards. The message goes out to look for hobbits, Shagrat is executed for his execrable command skills...

... and then Sauron has about eight days to stew before Aragorn, the presumed Ringbearer, shows up at his gate.

This is where the 'rebel Uruk-hai' story comes in, and it actually comes pretty quick: it looks like Frodo and Sam overheard the Soldier and Tracker discussing it on the 18th. Whether it sprang from my Saruman theory (which doesn't depend on inaccurate reporting), or from generalised concerns about rebellion at Minas Morgul (whence Gorbag), it clearly came to Sauron's mind very quickly.

I dunno, I quite like the image of the Dark Lord working himself up into an absolute paranoid panic for a full week as Aragorn approaches and he waits for the other shoe to drop...

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The same unpublished time-scheme referenced above also has this entry, for March 15:

News of escape of prisoners of Tower reaches Barad-dûr almost as soon as news of their capture.

So there were three separate messages: one announcing the capture, a second announcing the escape, and the third being Shagrat. Note that March 15 is the day of the escape, and two days before Shagrat's arrival with the mithril-coat etc. I think therefore we can assume 2 days' journey (as the Orc runs) between Cirith Ungol and Barad-dur; this is consonant with the news of the capture (on March 13th) arriving on the 15th. Whereas the news of the escape was brought by some mode much, much faster, almost certainly a Nazgul. I don't think it much of a stretch that the Nazgul that arrived just as F&S were escaping had been dispatched expressly because of the news that a "spy" had been captured, and its (original) assignment was to return the prisoner for interrogation; and that instead it returned to Lugburz to report on the clusterfark it found.

(I think we can disregard Tolkien's use of a plural here as a slip, in a note jotted in haste. No version of the story ever had Sam taken prisoner).

Why did Sauron take no more decisive action when the first message arrived? Because he had other things on his mind-- like his main army assaulting the principal stronghold of his enemies, and unexpectedly being annihilated. That pretty much had the Eye's undivided attention on March 15.

(Nazgul and Osanwe? An argument against is that another Nazgul was dispatched to B-D to carry the news that the Witch-King had been destroyed; not something which would justify pulling a major combat asset out of the battle if it weren't the only mode of communication. Note also that Sauron dispatched a second Nazgul in response to Pippin's looking into the Palantir, rather than re-tasking the one which was already en route to Rohan. And, finally, other writings incl. the time-schemes make it clear that Sauron was unaware of the events at the Bruinen until the Witch-king arrived in Mordor weeks later. All this suggests strongly that the Ringwraiths did not have radio comms with HQ.)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Another thought, on the parley at the Black Gate: If Sauron had recovered the Ring, Gandalf as Narya's keeper almost certainly would have been aware of it, just as Celebrimbor et al had been when it was first forged.

[Mithadan]

Very good point.

[Pervinca Took]

Good point indeed. I can't believe I hadn't thought of that before. My next paragraph possibly explains why I hadn't:

I wonder why Gandalf is so worried about the 'darkness' that has spread from Mordor, if Narya would 'tell' him Sauron did not have the Ring, when Faramir tells them he has met Frodo and Sam (and Gollum). I know Gandalf fears Gollum's treachery, but Pippin realises with a thrill of fear that Gandalf himself is troubled, even afraid. Faramir knows about the Ring, and connects Gandalf's immediate fear with the darkness that has begun. Faramir does not know about Narya, of course. And it is he who verbally connects the darkness with the supposed recovery of the Ring ... but I still had the impression that Gandalf was thinking of it, too.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Another thought, on the parley at the Black Gate: If Sauron had recovered the Ring, Gandalf as Narya's keeper almost certainly would have been aware of it, just as Celebrimbor et al had been when it was first forged.

Is Gandalf actually wearing Narya at this point? (Same question for Galadriel and Elrond.) It seems like, if you'd just sent the One into Mordor, and knew that Sauron could access all your thoughts in an instant with it if he captured it, taking your own Ring off would be the logical first step.

Doing a quick trawl for ' ring ' in RotK, there are only six mentions of the word in such a context prior to Book Six, and all are talking about the One. Nothing to prove Gandalf is still wearing Narya.

In fact, as Pervinca Took says, there is ample reason to believe he wasn't:

Originally Posted by RotK: The Siege of Gondor

‘There never was much hope,’ he answered. ‘Just a fool’s hope, as I have been told. And when I heard of Cirith Ungol---‘ He broke off and strode to the window as if his eyes could pierce the night in the East. ‘Cirith Ungol!’ he muttered. ‘Why that way, I wonder?’ He turned. ‘Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name. And yet in truth I believe that the news that Faramir brings has some hope in it. For it seems clear that our Enemy has opened his war at last and made the first move while Frodo was still free...'

'While Frodo was still free'. Gandalf's concern was most definitely that Frodo had been captured; he thought that Sauron's movements indicated that he had reclaimed the Ring. It was only after he heard the timing from Faramir that he figured out what had happened:

Originally Posted by RotK: The Siege of Gondor

'Let me see: some five days ago now he would discover that we had thrown down Saruman and had taken the Stone. Still what of that? We could not use it to much purpose, or without his knowing. Ah! I wonder. Aragorn? His time draws near. And he is strong and stern underneath, Pippin; bold, determined, able to take his own counsel and dare great risks at need. That may be it. He may have used the Stone and shown himself to the Enemy, challenging him, for this very purpose.'

It says a lot about Gandalf's intelligence that he immediately 'solved the case' like this. But what it also says is that he doesn't know the status of the Ring for certain.

There's only really two options here:

-That Gandalf is not wearing Narya, which I think would have to be for safety reasons.
-That he thinks Sauron might refrain from putting the Ring on until the crucial moment.

One final hint at the first option:

Originally Posted by RotK: The Grey Havens

As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire.

I've always placed the emphasis here on 'openly'... but is it possible that 'wore' is just as significant?

~

Jumping back to William Cloud Hicklin's post for a minute, I agree with the logic against Ringwraith Telepathy. It also explains why Sauron didn't flood the Misty Mountains with orcs the minute Frodo donned the Ring at Weathertop: if he knew instantly that the Ring was moving, he could/should have assailed Lorien immediately from Dol Guldur and struck for Rivendell. Yes, there were servants of the Enemy moving around, but not in the kind of numbers that the confirmed presence of the Ring of Power would evoke. (Once the Nazgûl managed to return to Mordor, he would assume that the location of the Ring had long since been lost; the idea that they would hang out in Rivendell for two months would have been far from his mind.)

I appreciate the confirmation of the timeline around the Tower; so the message about the prisoner arrived first? But it arrived by the 15th, which... let me check the map.

Okay, so it's about 60-70 miles from the Tower to Lugbúrz in a straight line. Assuming 36 hours as a timeframe, you could cover that in a continuous amble; a running messenger could do it and even take breaks. Assuming a Winged Messenger could make the return trip in an hour or so... yes, this is a consistent timeline.

I don't know about the idea that the Messenger just happened to be on final approach to the Tower when Frodo and Sam broke the Watchers and brought it down in a hurry. That sounds a bit too convenient. Perhaps he* was instead passing over on return to Minas Morgul, and broke his journey to investigate the happenings at the Tower he was bearing word about? That's a little less... neat.

*Do we actually know that the Nazgûl are all male? I know they're Men, but... y'know what, there's probably a thread about that around here somewhere. I'll take a look.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Another thought, on the parley at the Black Gate: If Sauron had recovered the Ring, Gandalf as Narya's keeper almost certainly would have been aware of it, just as Celebrimbor et al had been when it was first forged.

Maybe he wasn't sure what Sauron putting on the Ring would feel like. This could be explained that unlike Celebrimbor Gandalf was never in any doubt about Sauron's intentions. Part of what was so shocking was that the elves had been deceived about Sauron's intentions and his putting on the Ring took the mask off that. If Gandalf was always in some level of spiritual contention with Sauron, similar to Galadriel, perhaps he might be unsure what to expect.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't know about the idea that the Messenger just happened to be on final approach to the Tower when Frodo and Sam broke the Watchers and brought it down in a hurry. That sounds a bit too convenient. Perhaps he* was instead passing over on return to Minas Morgul, and broke his journey to investigate the happenings at the Tower he was bearing word about? That's a little less... neat.

It does seem a little convenient, I will admit, but given a plausible overall scenario, which I think is laid out here, a little moment of dramatic coincidence could be forgiven.

However, I always had the idea that the Nazgul was only watching the Tower until the Watchers went off again.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Let me just start by saying that this tread has been an absolute joy to read through!

Love it, love it, love it.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Message 1 probably arrives at Lugbúrz on this day (if it was ever sent); Sauron probably kills the messenger, because who wants to hear 'we've caught a prisoner' after already knowing that everyone's dead?

Why would he kill a messenger for bringing outdated news? That seem like an over the top hollywood bad guy move. Sauron is clearly not bothered about loosing a few orcs if it serves a tactical or strategic purpose (keeping Shelob fed being the best example), but there is little to indicate that he kills randomly due emotional instability.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Is Gandalf actually wearing Narya at this point? (Same question for Galadriel and Elrond.) It seems like, if you'd just sent the One into Mordor, and knew that Sauron could access all your thoughts in an instant with it if he captured it, taking your own Ring off would be the logical first step.

Doing a quick trawl for ' ring ' in RotK, there are only six mentions of the word in such a context prior to Book Six, and all are talking about the One. Nothing to prove Gandalf is still wearing Narya.

In fact, as Pervinca Took says, there is ample reason to believe he wasn't:

'While Frodo was still free'. Gandalf's concern was most definitely that Frodo had been captured; he thought that Sauron's movements indicated that he had reclaimed the Ring. It was only after he heard the timing from Faramir that he figured out what had happened:

It says a lot about Gandalf's intelligence that he immediately 'solved the case' like this. But what it also says is that he doesn't know the status of the Ring for certain.

There's only really two options here:

-That Gandalf is not wearing Narya, which I think would have to be for safety reasons.
-That he thinks Sauron might refrain from putting the Ring on until the crucial moment.

One final hint at the first option:

I've always placed the emphasis here on 'openly'... but is it possible that 'wore' is just as significant?

I see no reason to believe that the three was not in use. The rings give power according to the stature of the wearer, and we have no way of knowing the exact nature of this power.When Celebrimbor perceives Sauron, there is an important element of treachery, I cannot help but to think that this is key in Celebrimbor perceiving Sauron (this is not backed by any written sources). My point is that I don't believe that just because you wear one of the elven rings, you will automatically be aware if Sauron comes in possesion of the one ring. Tolkien's magic tends not resemble the laws of physics and be somewhat erratic.

Most importantly: Samwise does not see Galadriel's ring, yet she is clearly wearing it and weidling its power. It also seems like it would be prudent to use the power of Nenya in the effort to protect Lothlorien from Sauron's forces.