Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

[Findegil]

Good catch Tyr! I worked only from a scan and never checked the original text. So we can either let the sign stand or change it to 'root'. So I am inclinde to let it stand in this footnote.

ArcusCalion, the * [asterix] form is not really the same as a √ (even so in an artificial language the difference is only a fancy of the author): a √ is found in the recorded past of a language while the * form is only reconstructed by the 'loremasters'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Fin, this is true but in Q&E the form, for example, *KWENE is used for roots. In the Shibboleth notes on the sons of Feanor, the roots are simply capitalized, like PHIN. However, in Words, Phrases, and Passages, the roots are written with the radical, but the same roots are repeated in Q&E (a later document) with the asterisk, alongside reconstructed forms by loremasters also using an asterisk. Therefore it seems the published texts are inconsistent on the formation of these roots. We should standardize them. As you say, the asterisk is already used for the reconstructed forms, so perhaps we should go with the radical. If that is the case, then I think we need to standardize it across all documents, from the Shibboleth name notes to the Q&E material to the notes on PHAN and the Osanwe. In addition, in every other setting the roots are capitalized, so should we do that here with these two?

[Findegil]

A standardisation is a good idea. And for me capitalisation is the better choice, since it would easiliy allow reconstrucetd roots by asterix and captalisation.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

While scouring Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn for any more bits I could use, I found something in Appendix E that I figured we were lacking at the moment: the translation and etymology of Celeborn's name. Therefore, as this is his first appearance in the narrative, I figured we could add it in here as a footnote, like so:

NG-EX-04.92<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn In Doriath {she}Galadriel met Celeborn, NG-EX-04.93 <The Names of Galadriel and Celeborn [Footnote: {the}The ancient stem of the Elvish word for ‘silver’ was kyelep-, becoming celeb in Sindarin. {, telep-, telpe in Telerin, and tyelep-, tyelpe in Quenya. But in Quenya the form telpe became usual, through the influence of Telerin; for the Teleri prized silver above gold, and their skill as silversmiths was esteemed even by the Noldor. Thus Telperion was more commonly used than Tyelperion as the name of the White Tree of Valinor. (Alatáriel was also Telerin; its Quenya form was Altáriel.)
The name Celeborn when first devised was intended to mean "Silver Tree"; it was the name of the Tree of Tol Eressëa (The Silmarillion p.59). Celeborn's close kin had "tree-names" (p.244): Galadhon his fa¬ther, Galathil his brother, and Nimloth his niece, who bore the same name as the White Tree of Númenor. In my father's latest philological writings, however, the meaning "Silver Tree" was abandoned: the}The second element of Celeborn (as the name of a person) was derived from the ancient adjectival form ornā ‘uprising, tall,’ rather than from the related noun ornē ‘tree.’ (Ornê was originally applied to straighter and more slender trees such as birches, whereas stouter, more spreading trees such as oaks and beeches were called in the ancient language galada ‘great growth;’ but this distinction was not always observed in Quenya and disappeared in Sindarin, where all trees came to be called galadh, and orn fell out of common use, surviving only in verse and songs and in many names both of persons and of trees.)]> grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol>

[Findegil]

NG-EX-04.93: Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Originally Posted by Findegil

- Celeborn in ‘Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin’:
Yes I think we should include this, so we might better use the original source texts for the edit:

... Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (NG-EX-04.7{Nibinnogs}[Noegyth Nibin]), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting them NG-EX-04.8{ - hence Mîm's special hatred for the Elves -} especially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Tuna than any of the other princes.
>Yet Galadriel his sister dwelt NG-EX-04.9{never}[not] in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.> NG-EX-04.92<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn In Doriath {she}Galadriel met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol> NG-EX-04.95<Shiboleth , whom she wedded later in Beleriand.> NG-EX-04.97<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn Elmo{ – a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he} was the younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, and was {"}beloved of Elwë with whom he remained.{" (}Elmo's son was named Galadhon, and his sons were Celeborn and Galathil; Galathil was the father of Nimloth, who wedded Dior Thingol's Heir and was the mother of Elwing. By this genealogy Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel, the grand-daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë.
> NG-EX-05 <LQ2 Now Turgon remembered rather the City set upon a Hill, Tirion the fair with its Tower and Tree, and he found not what he sought, and returned to {Nivrost}[Nevrast], and sat at peace in Vinyamar by the shore. …

- Celeborn as kinsmen of Nimloth: This is already include under the editorial maker RD-EX-66

- Celeborn escaping the sack of Doriath: I think this we should tell in retrospective, as we do with the story of Galadriel leaving Beleriand before the end of the First Age.

Respectfully
Findegil

I am placing this here for Aiwendil's convenience and to keep all the proposed and agreed edits in one thread. This arose out of our discussion in the Galadriel and Celeborn thread about introducing Celeborn to the story where we discussed adding him in using CT's additions from the Sil77, and ultimately Fin proposed this, to which I agreed.

[ArcusCalion]

While reading through Beren and Lúthien, I came upon this footnote in the chapter The Return of Beren and Lúthien According to the Quenta Noldorinwa:

A later version of the story concerning the Nauglamír told that it had been made by craftsmen of the Dwarves long before for Felagund, and that it was the sole treasure that Húrin brought from Nargothrond and gave to Thingol. The task that Thingol then set the Dwarves was to remake the Nauglamír and in it to set the Silmaril that was in his possession. This is the form of the story in the published Silmarillion.

This note has many many ramifications for the entire Ruin of Doriath text which the project has made, but setting it aside for the time being, in our present text, we have no mention of the Nauglamír until it is set upon the neck of Thingol already named. We must give some account of its origin, and although I am no expert in the texts, it would seem that the only two accounts are 1) the Lost Tales account, and 2) the mention in this footnote which was adopted in the Sil77. Therefore, since the version used in the Sil77 is the later of the two, I propose that even if we change nothing about the Ruin of Doriath text, we include the account of its making from the Sil77 here in this chapter. Like so:

.... Finrod had brought more treasure out of Túna than any of the other princes.> NG-EX-04.85 <Sil77 And in that time was made for him the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, most renowned of their works in the Elder Days. It was a carcanet of gold, and set therein were gems uncounted from Valinor; but it had a power within it so that it rested lightly on its wearer as a strand of flax, and whatsoever neck it clasped it sat always with grace and loveliness.>
Yet Galadriel his sister ....

EDIT: Having discussed the note in the thread of the Ruin of Doriath with Aiwendil, we decided to keep the draft the same. So we don't need to do this change.