Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Another thought, on the parley at the Black Gate: If Sauron had recovered the Ring, Gandalf as Narya's keeper almost certainly would have been aware of it, just as Celebrimbor et al had been when it was first forged.

Is Gandalf actually wearing Narya at this point? (Same question for Galadriel and Elrond.) It seems like, if you'd just sent the One into Mordor, and knew that Sauron could access all your thoughts in an instant with it if he captured it, taking your own Ring off would be the logical first step.

Doing a quick trawl for ' ring ' in RotK, there are only six mentions of the word in such a context prior to Book Six, and all are talking about the One. Nothing to prove Gandalf is still wearing Narya.

In fact, as Pervinca Took says, there is ample reason to believe he wasn't:

Originally Posted by RotK: The Siege of Gondor

‘There never was much hope,’ he answered. ‘Just a fool’s hope, as I have been told. And when I heard of Cirith Ungol---‘ He broke off and strode to the window as if his eyes could pierce the night in the East. ‘Cirith Ungol!’ he muttered. ‘Why that way, I wonder?’ He turned. ‘Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name. And yet in truth I believe that the news that Faramir brings has some hope in it. For it seems clear that our Enemy has opened his war at last and made the first move while Frodo was still free...'

'While Frodo was still free'. Gandalf's concern was most definitely that Frodo had been captured; he thought that Sauron's movements indicated that he had reclaimed the Ring. It was only after he heard the timing from Faramir that he figured out what had happened:

Originally Posted by RotK: The Siege of Gondor

'Let me see: some five days ago now he would discover that we had thrown down Saruman and had taken the Stone. Still what of that? We could not use it to much purpose, or without his knowing. Ah! I wonder. Aragorn? His time draws near. And he is strong and stern underneath, Pippin; bold, determined, able to take his own counsel and dare great risks at need. That may be it. He may have used the Stone and shown himself to the Enemy, challenging him, for this very purpose.'

It says a lot about Gandalf's intelligence that he immediately 'solved the case' like this. But what it also says is that he doesn't know the status of the Ring for certain.

There's only really two options here:

-That Gandalf is not wearing Narya, which I think would have to be for safety reasons.
-That he thinks Sauron might refrain from putting the Ring on until the crucial moment.

One final hint at the first option:

Originally Posted by RotK: The Grey Havens

As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly upon his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire.

I've always placed the emphasis here on 'openly'... but is it possible that 'wore' is just as significant?

~

Jumping back to William Cloud Hicklin's post for a minute, I agree with the logic against Ringwraith Telepathy. It also explains why Sauron didn't flood the Misty Mountains with orcs the minute Frodo donned the Ring at Weathertop: if he knew instantly that the Ring was moving, he could/should have assailed Lorien immediately from Dol Guldur and struck for Rivendell. Yes, there were servants of the Enemy moving around, but not in the kind of numbers that the confirmed presence of the Ring of Power would evoke. (Once the Nazgûl managed to return to Mordor, he would assume that the location of the Ring had long since been lost; the idea that they would hang out in Rivendell for two months would have been far from his mind.)

I appreciate the confirmation of the timeline around the Tower; so the message about the prisoner arrived first? But it arrived by the 15th, which... let me check the map.

Okay, so it's about 60-70 miles from the Tower to Lugbúrz in a straight line. Assuming 36 hours as a timeframe, you could cover that in a continuous amble; a running messenger could do it and even take breaks. Assuming a Winged Messenger could make the return trip in an hour or so... yes, this is a consistent timeline.

I don't know about the idea that the Messenger just happened to be on final approach to the Tower when Frodo and Sam broke the Watchers and brought it down in a hurry. That sounds a bit too convenient. Perhaps he* was instead passing over on return to Minas Morgul, and broke his journey to investigate the happenings at the Tower he was bearing word about? That's a little less... neat.

*Do we actually know that the Nazgûl are all male? I know they're Men, but... y'know what, there's probably a thread about that around here somewhere. I'll take a look.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Another thought, on the parley at the Black Gate: If Sauron had recovered the Ring, Gandalf as Narya's keeper almost certainly would have been aware of it, just as Celebrimbor et al had been when it was first forged.

Maybe he wasn't sure what Sauron putting on the Ring would feel like. This could be explained that unlike Celebrimbor Gandalf was never in any doubt about Sauron's intentions. Part of what was so shocking was that the elves had been deceived about Sauron's intentions and his putting on the Ring took the mask off that. If Gandalf was always in some level of spiritual contention with Sauron, similar to Galadriel, perhaps he might be unsure what to expect.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I don't know about the idea that the Messenger just happened to be on final approach to the Tower when Frodo and Sam broke the Watchers and brought it down in a hurry. That sounds a bit too convenient. Perhaps he* was instead passing over on return to Minas Morgul, and broke his journey to investigate the happenings at the Tower he was bearing word about? That's a little less... neat.

It does seem a little convenient, I will admit, but given a plausible overall scenario, which I think is laid out here, a little moment of dramatic coincidence could be forgiven.

However, I always had the idea that the Nazgul was only watching the Tower until the Watchers went off again.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Let me just start by saying that this tread has been an absolute joy to read through!

Love it, love it, love it.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Message 1 probably arrives at Lugbúrz on this day (if it was ever sent); Sauron probably kills the messenger, because who wants to hear 'we've caught a prisoner' after already knowing that everyone's dead?

Why would he kill a messenger for bringing outdated news? That seem like an over the top hollywood bad guy move. Sauron is clearly not bothered about loosing a few orcs if it serves a tactical or strategic purpose (keeping Shelob fed being the best example), but there is little to indicate that he kills randomly due emotional instability.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Is Gandalf actually wearing Narya at this point? (Same question for Galadriel and Elrond.) It seems like, if you'd just sent the One into Mordor, and knew that Sauron could access all your thoughts in an instant with it if he captured it, taking your own Ring off would be the logical first step.

Doing a quick trawl for ' ring ' in RotK, there are only six mentions of the word in such a context prior to Book Six, and all are talking about the One. Nothing to prove Gandalf is still wearing Narya.

In fact, as Pervinca Took says, there is ample reason to believe he wasn't:

'While Frodo was still free'. Gandalf's concern was most definitely that Frodo had been captured; he thought that Sauron's movements indicated that he had reclaimed the Ring. It was only after he heard the timing from Faramir that he figured out what had happened:

It says a lot about Gandalf's intelligence that he immediately 'solved the case' like this. But what it also says is that he doesn't know the status of the Ring for certain.

There's only really two options here:

-That Gandalf is not wearing Narya, which I think would have to be for safety reasons.
-That he thinks Sauron might refrain from putting the Ring on until the crucial moment.

One final hint at the first option:

I've always placed the emphasis here on 'openly'... but is it possible that 'wore' is just as significant?

I see no reason to believe that the three was not in use. The rings give power according to the stature of the wearer, and we have no way of knowing the exact nature of this power.When Celebrimbor perceives Sauron, there is an important element of treachery, I cannot help but to think that this is key in Celebrimbor perceiving Sauron (this is not backed by any written sources). My point is that I don't believe that just because you wear one of the elven rings, you will automatically be aware if Sauron comes in possesion of the one ring. Tolkien's magic tends not resemble the laws of physics and be somewhat erratic.

Most importantly: Samwise does not see Galadriel's ring, yet she is clearly wearing it and weidling its power. It also seems like it would be prudent to use the power of Nenya in the effort to protect Lothlorien from Sauron's forces.