The Last Alliance

[Findegil]

BY-HL-20: Yes, that is agreed, sorry for not being clear about this at once.

LA-SL-01: Okay, that is a better start. Agreed.

LA-SL-08: Good to have you discussing with us gondowe! I think that you are right. The statement in LotR, Appendix B is not so unspecifc, in my oppinion. Specially if taken together with the first version of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn it makes the use of the later nearly note impossible. I suggest therefore to change in this chapter to skip L-SL-08 but add the following:

LA-SL-15<LotR, Book II, Chapter 2 <on the slopes of Orodruin.>{He}Isildur alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and {I}Elrond.><Gil-galad died> by< the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;>{, and they both were slain}, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. LA-SL-15.5<LotR, Appendix B Gil-galad before he died gave his Ring to Elrond. >But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. ...

And to change in the chapter Of the Rings of Power in this way:

... Celebrimbor followed her counsel that the Ring of Air and the Ring of Fire should be sent out of Eregion; and he entrusted them to Gil-galad in Lindon. RP-SL-09b{ (It is said here that at this time} Gil galad gave Narya, the Red Ring, to Círdan Lord of the Havens.{, but later in the narrative there is a marginal note that he kept it himself until he set out for the War of the Last Alliance.)} RP-SL-10 <LotR, Appendix A III It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk ...
...
...
...
RP-SL-22<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn At this time the first RP-SL-23<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, note 10 White >Council was held, RP-SL-24{10} and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad RP-SL-24.5{gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and }appointed {him}Elrond to be his vice-regent in Eriador. RP-SL-25b{; but the Red Ring he kept, until he gave it to Círdan when he set out from Lindon in the days of the Last Alliance.11} For many years the Westlands had peace, ...

If the remark in Appendix B is not taken as a cleary ststement that Gil-galad held Vilya until his death, but rather is read as 'at some unspecific time before his death', than we can leave LA-SL-08 as it was and leave out RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5.

LA-SL-09: I can understand your concerns and I am not adamant on this addition. If you really think it superficial we can let it out.

LA-SL-12: Oops, Malgalad to Amdír was a late change from ‘private Draft’ to ‘Draft’ in the earlier chapters and I missed to make it through out.

LA-SL-13: The description of the War is already week. I think that this recapture of Minas Ithil is an essential part of the War strategy of the West. But you might of course be right that we will miss this passage dearly in the next chapter. I suppose we leave this point undecided until we have the full picture in both chapters and then chose were to use this passage.

LA-SL-16: It is always a bit difficult to place a chapter break when working only on one side of it. So I for the moment agree to place this in the next chapter. If when discussing this I feel that it would better be move we can easily re-open this point.

LA-SL-17: Yes, when used in the next chapter this sentence is superficial. I used it because I was unwilling to state that Isildur moved to Minas Anor next, which is what followed in The Rings of Power.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

LA-SL-08: I think the second option is best. Personally I think 'before he died' is not specific, and so we should simply leave the text as it is, and not include RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5.

LA-SL-09: I think it is safer to leave it out.

LA-SL-13/16/17: This is fair. We can re-open discussion on these points later if you find the next chapter inadequate.

I think with that we have reached the end of the first round of edits on the entirety of the Second Age material! That's incredible, especially considering the unfinished and uncertain state of most of the Second Age events, and I think we have made an incredible narrative out of some very difficult source material! I'll try to prep the first Fading Years chapter for tomorrow.

[gondowe]

In principle, that's fine. But I would like to think on how the Rings were "hold".
I mean.
It is assumed that when Sauron made the One Ring the Elves took Theirs from their hands to hide them but not hold them (on their fingers).
Then it always seemed strange to me that Gil-galad would take Vilya in the war against Sauron since HE had the One in his hand. Unless Gil-galad took IT as Frodo did with a chain.
So, "before he died" should be taken into account "just before" or in a previous time?
What is your opinion? How could it be handled?
I personally maintained that Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond when he says in GaC, for consistency. But it's something that always gnawed at me.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Who received the Ring when? I think we must split the discussion a bit:

LA-SL-08 or RP-SL-09b and RP-SL-25b: I think, it can not be denied, that LotR, Appendix B states that Círdan held Narya while Gil-gald held Vilya. Thus Gil-galad gave Narya to Círdan when he received the Rings from Celebrimbor. That means the removal of LA-SL-08 and the change to RP-SL-09b and RP-SL-25b is necessary.

RP-SL-24.5 & LA-SL-15.5: The choice we have is only between:
A) Gil-gald giving Vilya to Elrond during the first White Council (RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5 not used) or
B) right before his death (RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5 used)

From the textual situation I lean rather to B). But from logical point of view thinks look different:
- Of course keeping a Ring of Power even without using it has some influence on the potential of the Keeper (enhancement in ‘Valinórean stature’?), e.g. Sam at Cirith Ungol or Frodo dealing with Gollum at the slope of Orodruin. But Gil-galad was as King of the Noldor holding the greatest authority and real might of the candidates Gil-galad, Galadriel, Círdan and Elrond (even if others like Celeborn, Glorfindel, Galdor, Erestor or Gildor where considered, that does not change the picture).
- To give Vilya to Elrond at the moment of his promotion to Vice regent of Eriador and Lord of the independent stronghold of Imlardis fits into the picture. He is younger than many of the others and as an Half-elf might have been considered wielding less authority over his subjects. Thus from Gil-galads point of view and enhancement of Elrond makes more sense than on of himself. Or any one else.
- Anyhow from the perspective of Gil-galad the Rings were unusable (only the potential not the real ‘might’ is changed).
- Because of the lure to use them they were a burden.
- If Gil-galad kept Vilya two Rings would have been bestowed within the same Elvish realm (Lindon), which might be considered as risky.
- Going into the mortal combat with Sauron and holding Vilya would have been foolish. The luring would have helped Sauron in the contest as long as he wielded the One and if Sauron would have gained Vilya during the contest that would have been even worth for the other combatants than the death of Gil-galad alone, because Sauron could use the Ring and would gain what so ever advantage the Ring could offer.

I don’t see the text of LotR, Appendix B if read specific giving us the freeness to stat that Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond before the combat. That is taking too much liberty since we have absolutely no evidence of this from JRR Tolkien.

Thus at the long last A) is the logical choice, for me.

Do we agree on this?

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I agree to the Cirdan bit. The revisions are good.

Edit: I am sorry, I misread everything in the post haha. Forgive me, it has been a long night.... I also agree with A)

[gondowe]

A) Gil-gald giving Vilya to Elrond during the first White Council
B) right before his death

As I said before I think that TLOTR must be taken as "law".
In this case "before he died", what does it mean or can it mean?
Giving the ring to Elrond at the time of the White Council IS before he died, though a long time, it is true.

On the other hand what I wanted to say is that when Celebrimbror felt that Sauron had put the One Ring, in turn he removed the one that at that moment would take, because he would know that "one ring to rule them all".
And for that reason the decision to hide them not wearing them (while Sauron was wearing the One Ring).

However powerful Gil-galad might be, wearing Vilya could mean that Sauron could dominate him and therefore defeat him.

Possibly, as speculation, for this reason is the marginal note of Tolkien, I do not know.

Therefore for consistency I have to choose and in fact I always chose A), although as I said before is perhaps one of those passages, let's say, impossible to do entirely coherent without showing them a bit "forced".

Greetings

Or maybe leave the marginal note, instead of for Cirdan, for Elrond, that is, gave Vilya to Elrond before leaving for the war in the Time of the Last Alliance. Of course, leaving it safely in Imladris, would it be possible?

[ArcusCalion]

Yes that is very true Gondowe. I misread Fin's post (apologies all) and so I find that I agree with you both. It seems we are all in agreement.