The Stewards

[ArcusCalion]

3) I agree to the use of the '*****' as an editorial distinction, as I think it is enough. I as well agree with keeping Of the Finding of the Ring as a subheading. As to The Broken Bridge see below.

4) Hmm actually seeing it all laid out is indeed very different. I hadn't realized just how short this portion of the adventure was.... Very well, I will agree to the inclusion of these changes, albeit somewhat reluctantly. I do not deny that it is something I had wanted to be able to do somehow when I learned about the 1960 revisions, perhaps to include in the project a 'revised' Hobbit, but I see now that this way is better. Very well Fin, you have won me over . I do not think Aiwendil will be that easy to convince, however, if he ever gets to this draft. I will also keep The Broken Bridge as a sub-heading.

TS-QE-03: Agreed.

I must say, after all that whirlwind of confusion, that turned out to be remarkably simple. Well done Fin! Your flowers are most absolutely deserved.

[Findegil]

Sorry for not providing these changes at once with my draft, but I was hesitating about them until I had posted the draft:

…and went at a leisurely pace, spending nights in good inns. TS-QE-32b<The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary /The night of April 28th they spend/{Spend night} at the All-welcome Inn, at junction of the Northway and the East Road (on Hobbiton side of Frogmorton). So-called because much used by travelers through the Shire, especially by dwarves on the way to Thorin’s home in exile, which was in the west-side of the Blue mountains (southern part, in Harlindon). {None of this is mentioned in the text, but The All-welcome Inn should be marked on the needed Shire-map in any new edition of The Hobbit. }It has to be remembered that the East Road though it ran through the Shire was not the property of the hobbits: it was an ancient ‘royal road’, and they maintained the traditional duty of keeping it in repair and providing hospitality for travelers. This was of course profitable. It also provided their chief source of ‘outside news’. Dwarves were therefore not a rare sight on the East Road or in its inns ({It}it would also appear that they were sometimes employed as roadmenders and bridge-repairers), but they seldom turned off it, and their appearance in a company in Bywater and Hobbiton must have caused a lot of talk. They cared very little about hobbits, and had little to do with them, except as a source of food in exchange for metal, or sometimes forged articles (knives, ploughshares, arrowheads, axe-heads and the like). The poorer sort (or Thorin’s folk in their earlier time of poverty) might accept employment, as masons and roadmakers for example. But they had the notion that hobbits were a slow stupid folk, with few artefacts, and simpleminded – because the hobbits were generous, never haggled, and gave what was asked.
{2. April 29. Night}/The next night Thorin and his companions were/ at Whitfurrows.>{; not} Not until the Saturday afternoon did they cross the great bridge over the Brandywine River ...
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In a day or two they came to Bree on the Hill. There they spent their last comfortable night for many a day to come, in the great inn of Bree, the Prancing Pony, well-known to the hobbits of the east side of the Shire. TS-QE-33.7<The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary {They reach Bree (another 20miles).} There they {stay the night, and purchase}also purchased a good many supplies (including pipe-weed).>{ Bree was as far as Bilbo’s knowledge reached, even by hearsay.} Beyond {it}Bree the lands had been desolate for many long years. ...
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‘Ha!’ said Gandalf, peering through the rain. ‘The bridge! The bridge is broken!’ He turned away snapping his fingers and muttering to himself: ‘there is mischief here! Elrond must be told TS-QE-34.7<The History of the Hobbit; Note at the end of Fifth Phase{Ch. III should make clear Elrond’s} He has the care for the roads {etc.}[/u]and bridges[/b] from Greyflood to the {<}Mountains{>}>’.
They did not know what he meant. ...
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... ‘Steady now’, he said to the horse. ‘Over once more, and your own land is not so far ahead!’ TS-QE-34.9<The History of the Hobbit; Note at the end of Fifth Phase{Also insert the} The white horse Róhald belonged to Rivendell, {&}and had been lent by Elrond to Gandalf.>

At last they had all crossed: ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

nice, looks good, some good tidbits!

[gandalf85]

An impressive amount of work went into this chapter, and it shows. "The Broken Bridge" is a very intimate and detailed telling of the story of the Hobbit up to a certain point, but I think it definitely fits within the scope of the project and I think it works pretty well. It is very Gandalf-focused and feels in sync with the parts from the Quest for Erebor. My comments and additions are fairly minor:

1)

TS-QE-02 <The Quest of Erebor {I cannot remember all the tale now, but we gathered that to begin with} Gandalf was thinking only of the defense of the West against the Shadow.

I think we should keep "To begin with":

TS-QE-02 <The Quest of Erebor {I cannot remember all the tale now, but we gathered that to} To begin with Gandalf was thinking only of the defense of the West against the Shadow.

2)

...I must make the Council see that.'
{"Those were my dark thoughts as I jogged along the road. I}Gandalf was tired, and {I}he was going to the Shire for a short rest, after being away from it for more than twenty years.> TS-QE-04<Quest of Erebor; Appendix And then there was the Shire-folk...

I think the transition from Gandalf's thoughts to him traveling and then back to his thoughts again is awkward. I propose a slight restructuring:

{"You may think}It may be thought that Rivendell was out of his reach...We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.'
TS-QE-04 <Quest of Erebor; Appendix And then there was the Shire-folk. {I}He began to have a warm place in {my}his heart for them in the Long Winter TS-QE-05{, which none of you can remember}. They were very hard put to it then...they survived. {I}Gandalf wanted them still to survive. TE-QE-05.1<Making of Appendix A He wished the Shire-folk to be ‘educated’ before evil days came{, and chose Bilbo (un-attached) as an instrument}.> But {I}he saw that the Westlands were in for another very bad time again...understand a bit clearer what it was all about, and where they stood.
{"}They had begun to forget...And anyway you must begin at some point, with some one person.>
TE-QE-05.2{Those}These were {my}his dark thoughts as {I}he jogged along the road. {I}Gandalf was tired, and {I}he was going to the Shire for a short rest, after being away from it for more than twenty years.>
TS-QE-06b <The Quest of Erebor {I}He thought that if {I}he put {them}his dark thoughts out of {my}his mind for a while {I}he might perhaps find some way of dealing with these troubles. And so {I did}it happened indeed, though {I}he was not allowed to put them out of {my}his mind.

I think this flows better. TE-QE-05.1 is an extra detail from HoME 12. I don't see why TE-QE-05.2 was removed, I think it sets the mood well. I changed the beginning of TS-QE-06 from "Gandalf" to "he".

3) Not a suggestion, but I think TS-QE-10 is a very clever use of the 1960s Hobbit.

4)

...we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often enough sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coalmining TS-QE-13 <The History of the Hobbit; A Well-Planned Party , or even road-mending>

Having "even" twice sounds awkward. I propose we remove the first "even":

...we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often enough sinking as low as blacksmith-work or {even} coalmining TS-QE-13 <The History of the Hobbit; A Well-Planned Party , or even road-mending>

5) Some slight changes to Gandalf meeting Thrain in Dol Guldur:

{"}But {I}Gandalf had not thought of them for years...{I}He remembered a dangerous journey of {mine}his, ninety-one years before, when {I}he had entered Dol Guldur in disguise, and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits. TS-QE-27.1 {{I}Gandalf had no idea who he was.} He had a map that had belonged to Durin's folk in Moria and a key that seemed to go with it, though he was too far gone to explain it. And he said that he had possessed a great Ring.
{"}Nearly all his ravings were of that...{I}He stowed the things away, and by some warning of {my}his heart {I}he kept them always with {me}him, safe, but soon almost forgotten. TS-QE-27.2 <The Making of Appendix A He was {probably} unaware who the dwarf was {in Dol Guldur}, since the 7th ring {would be} was no clue (Dwarves kept the possession of rings very secret), and {Thráin} the dwarf did not know his own name {(Hobbit p. 35)}.>{I}Gandalf had other business in Dol Guldur more important and perilous than all the treasure of Erebor.

The change in TS-QE-27.1 seemed necessary with the inclusion of TS-QE-27.2. I think the extra detail about dwarves keeping the possession of rings secret is important, and I couldn't find it in the "Durin's Folk" chapter.

6)

Dwarves were therefore not a rare sight on the East Road or in its inns ({It}it would also appear that they were sometimes employed as road-menders and bridge-repairers)

It's stated definitively that they were employed as road-menders. I propose:

Dwarves were therefore not a rare sight on the East Road or in its inns (TS-QE-32.5 {It would also appear that} they were sometimes employed as road-menders and bridge-repairers)

7)

I moved a sentence about Gandalf's horse that felt out of place:

As Bilbo had already noticed Gandalf used no stirrups, and seldom held the reins: Róhald, his horse, answered his commands, spoken softly in a strange tongue. TS-QE-34.9 <The History of the Hobbit; Note at the end of Fifth Phase {Also insert the} The white horse {Róhald} belonged to Rivendell, {&}and had been lent by Elrond to Gandalf.> The {white} horse tried the water and then walked on, slowly but without fear.

9) The end of "The Broken Bridge" feels like an awkward way to set up the next section. It says "the story is told elsewhere" and then continues the story. Therefore I propose this introduction to the "Of the Finding of the Ring" section:

TS-FR-01c <ORP {the} The matter would scarcely have concerned later history, or earned more than a note in the long annals of the Third Age, but for an ‘accident’ by the way.>
<LotR; Of the Finding of the Ring The party was assailed by Orcs in a high pass of the Misty Mountains as they went towards Wilderland

10) I moved TS-QE-41b to in my opinion a more appropriate spot:

TS-SL-04 <ORP But ever the shadow in Mirkwood {grew}had grown deeper, and to Dol Guldur evil things repaired out of all the dark places of the world; and they were united again under one will, and their malice was directed against the Elves and the survivors of Númenor. TS-QE-41b <The Quest of Erebor, Appendix That is why{, to jump forward, I}Gandalf went off as soon as the expedition against Smaug was well started, {and persuaded}to persuade the Council to attack Dol Guldur first, before he attacked Lórien.> Therefore at last the Council was again summoned and the lore of the Rings was much debated; but Mithrandir spoke to the Council, saying...

11) I added some bits to TS-QE-44

TS-QE-44c <The Quest of Erebor, Appendix And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. <The Quest of Erebor, Appendix {They will}Sauron and Smaug would have helped one another{.” And they certainly would have done so,} if {I}the Council had not attacked Dol Guldur at the same time.> Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped, if there had been no Lórien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen{, I think,} if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first, and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor. > And in that year the White Council met for the last time, and Curunír withdrew to Isengard, and took counsel with none save himself.

12)

[Footnote: The normal span of hobbits is represented as being roughly in the proportion of 100 to our 80.]

"represented as being" sounds like Tolkien talking about how he represented the lifespan of the hobbits. I propose we change it to:

[Footnote: The normal span of hobbits is RSO-SL-02.5 {represented as being} roughly in the proportion of 100 to our 80.]

13) Typos:

and they made deeper halls nd greater workshops

"nd" should be "and"

Bilbo already growing a bit queer

This should be: "Bilbo was..."

Smaug does not lie on his costly bed without dreams. Thorin Oakenshield.

This should have a comma: "without dreams, Thorin Oakenshield."

He is neat-banded and clever...

neat-handed

). So-called because much used by travelers...

I think this was a result of Tolkien writing rapidly. It should be "So-called because it was much used..."

They camped in its ruins, and next day they passed...

This feels more natural: "They camped in its ruins, and the next day they passed..."

‘I also said that not roads are now safe’ answered the wizard.

"no roads"

Trying to find his way out. Bilbo went on...

"Trying to find his way out, Bilbo..."

For he kept it hidden safe in a hole on his island, except when he was hunting or spying on the ores of the mines.

"ores" should be "orcs"

...yet my heart forebodes mat he will be shortlived.

"that"

His face was sad and stem...

"stern"

Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace lot less cause.

"for less cause"

[ArcusCalion]

Thank you for your diligence gandalf!

1) This is fine for me.

2) I like this better as well. Agreed.

3) Yes, Fin did a wonderful job.

4) Agreed

5) Is this canon? That Gandalf did not know it was Thrain? I felt that it said he did somewhere.

6) Agreed

7) I like this placing much better.

8) no 8? lol

9) Agreed, nice transition. I would not make that sentence its own paragraph tho, and I would call that addition TS-FR-00.5 and keep the other as is.

10) I like this better, Agreed.

11) Nice find! Agreed.

12) Good catch! Agreed.

13) Thank you!

[gandalf85]

5) I believe it's canon. In both the Quest of Erebor and the Making of Appendix A, it states he did not know who Thrain was. I will be on the look-out to see if I find this contradicted somewhere.

8) I have a minor in math but apparently cannot count.

11) I was wondering why you guys removed the last bit about the ringbearer, and I think I know why: it's basically a spoiler the way we have it structured. This text was intended to be a "looking back" conversation between Gandalf and the hobbits and Gimli after the War of the Ring. I think it's probably best to remove the last bits about the Ringbearer, but keep the part about Sauron and Smaug helping one another:

TS-QE-44c <The Quest of Erebor, Appendix And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. <The Quest of Erebor, Appendix {They will}Sauron and Smaug would have helped one another{.” And they certainly would have done so,} if {I}the Council had not attacked Dol Guldur at the same time.> Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow.> And in that year the White Council met for the last time, and Curunír withdrew to Isengard, and took counsel with none save himself.

[ArcusCalion]

5) I guess this is one of those times that an assumption becomes so ingrained in our heads we think it's canon! I agree to the change, pending any discovery of contradictory canon info.

11) Ah I missed that. I think it is the right choice to remove it, as Fin had done, so I agree to this change.