The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain

[Findegil]

NKD-SL-06b: I agree to the movement, but we have to take care about the editing marks. In its original palce this was the 1. paragraph of a longer part of Appendix A and it was already marked with a 'b' as being the second variant under discussion. I propose to name the shortened add in the original place NKD-SL-06c and name the paragraph about the hobbits used here NKD-SL-06.05.

NKD-SL-06.1: I agree to the insert and to the gramatical change, but at least evnen if 'Shire' should have a kapital 'S' the article 'the' shouldn't have a capital 'T'. But I like to propose a different edit:

NKD-SL-06.1<LotR Prologue Forty leagues {it}the land of the Hobbits stretched from the Far Downs to the Brandywine Bridge, and fifty from the northern moors to the marshes in the south. The Hobbits named it the Shire, as the region of the authority of their Thain, ...

NKD-SL-06.5: This is rather an editorial addition than a change for grammatical reasons. But I agree to it.

I as well agree to the rest of the changes.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Agreed

[gandalf85]

I like the placement of the LOTR prologue material in this chapter.

1) I have a concern about some of the instances where the authorial voice creeps in, namely (as noted by Arcus) "That law was made in Númenor NKD-SL-02 (as we have learned from the King) when Tar-Aldarion..." and "That was guarded by the Elves, and NKD-SL-04 though we never knew it, it remained there". There is another one Arcus missed:
"The scepter was the chief mark of royalty in Númenor, the King tells us..." I'm pretty sure the words "us" and "we" refer to the hobbits, but according to Fin in the topic on the Glorfindel chapter, we are not aiming for this to be an in-universe text:

It took some time but in the end the project members came to the conclusion that our texts do not intend to have in-universe equivalences. That means that the text does not try to represent anything written by an in-universe author. It tries to be the fullest ex-universe edition of the complete history being as far as possible in agreement with and complementary to the core cannon set by the 4 books about the legends of Eä published by JRR Tolkien (The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road goes ever on). As we found in many discussions that goal does counteract any attempt to create a text that claims any in-universe existence.

I think we need to remove the authorial voice:

That law was made in Númenor NKD-SL-02b {(as we have learned from the King)} when Tar-Aldarion...

That was guarded by the Elves, and NKD-SL-04b {though we never knew it}, it remained there...

The scepter was the chief mark of royalty in Númenor NKD-SL-08.51 {, the King tells us}; and that was also so in Arnor...

2) In addition, there is one bit of text which we moved to the "Sauron Defeated" chapter and needs to be removed:

In the beginning it was indeed a plain helm; and it is said to have been the one that Isildur wore in the Battle of Dagorlad NKD-SL-08.2 {(for the helm of Anárion was crushed by the stone-cast from Barad-dûr that slew him)}. But in the days of Atanatar...

3) Other than that, a few typos:

There is a missing apostrophe at the end of the third paragraph.

Some of these he found in camp by the seashore; but they did not help the king willingly, for he had nothing to offer them, save a few jewels which they did cat value

"cat" should be "not".

and those that survived of his company out over the ice in their sliding carts, as for as they dared.

"for" should be "far".

and when all was ready the host crossed the Lune and marched norm to challenge the Witch-king

"norm" should be "north".

But the Host of the West came down on him out of the Hills of Evendim, and were was a great battle on the plain

"were" should be "there".

when the main body of the horsemen that had passed round the hills Came down from the north

"Came" should be lowercase.

In the document I got from Arcus "scepter" is used but in the Lord of the Rings, it is spelled "sceptre".

4) One last comment:

NKD-SL-06.3 <LotR Prologue The Shire was divided into four quarters, the Farthings already referred to.

I think we should remove "already referred to". In the prologue to LotR, this is referring to the Farthings mentioned earlier in the prologue. In our text, farthings aren't referred to in this chapter and I think the last time they are mentioned is the "Return of the Shadow" chapter.

[ArcusCalion]

1) I think this is a large issue we need to discuss for the whole of the project. The authorial voice creeps in in the final chapter as well very prominently, and the decision made here affects it. Personally, I think gandalf's logic is sound, but I would love to hear Fin's thoughts.

2) I know we already used it, but it is being used here as evidence to prove a point, and since it is a small repetition, I do not think we need to remove it here. Some repetition of small bits like this isn't bad.

3) Thank you for catching these! As for sceptre/scepter it's just the British vs American spelling. My documents are all in American spelling, but Tolkien's are in British. A minor English oddity.

4) I agree to this, nice catch!

[gandalf85]

2) All right, I wasn't sure if this was intentionally kept in or accidentally missed. I'm OK with keeping it.

3) Ahh Ok, I thought I had seen it both ways (scepter and sceptre), I didn't know about the American/British difference.

[Findegil]

1) The problem with this special inunivers authorial inserts is that they give a clear evidence that the text was written by a Hobbit of the late Thrid Age. But that our work does not claim to have an inunivers equivalent as a hohle or in all its parts, does at least in my opinion not mean that the divers inunivers authors shouldn’t came through here or there. I think the question is rather if they are not out of place in the new sorounding in which we put these texts.

2) I agree that we left these passage intentionaly stand. And I think that this is specially okay, since we did not even use a full sentence.

3) Thanks for finding these.
I think we should use the British ‘sceptre’ since Tolkien is an English author.

4) Agreed. We should name that change NKD-SL-06.35.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Coming back to the first typo gandalf85 found: The missing apostroph at the end of the thrid paragraph is intentional. The direct speach continues in the fourth paragraph and in such cases in we find always only a apostroph at the begining of the next but none at the end of the paragraph.

Respectfully
Findegil