The Return of the Shadow

[Findegil]

RS-SL-31.25 (sorry if this nomination is confusing, but RS-SL-31.2b would be a variant of RS-SL-31.2 e.g. taken up a § more): I see the issue with ‘They first appeared’, but I would like to solve it differently. What about this:

Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those that had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study. They first RS-SL-31.3{appeared in}[became known in the North of] Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age, ...

instead of ‘became known’ we can as well take ‘were seen’. My reason for this different change will become clearer in the next part of this post.

RS-SL-31.2b, RS-SL-31.3, RS-SL-31.4& RS-SL-32.6: Okay, I agree to take up the next § (therefore RS-SL-31.2b), but the edits don’t look quite right to me. As I always told, I am a ‘combiner’ for me it is not a contradiction that we are told, that the Blue Wizards came in the second age and worked all that time in the east and when it says later in this chapter that they passed into the east with Curunir. Curunir felt by all save Varda as the head of the order comes in the Third Age and wants to visit the East where the two Blue Wizards have been working all this long years. So what would be more natural for Curunir to call on them to meet him at the havens and give him a guided tour through ‘their territory’? And this visit to meet Curunir was probably the only time that the two Blue Wizards were seen in the North-West of Middel-earth. Thus from the view point of a chronologists of the Third Age ‘of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards;’ for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned’. (Therefore I would the original unchanged text in RS-SL-32.6.) If seen thus it is fortunate that the text makes a difference between Curunir and Mithrandir as ‘the first to come’ and ‘the last to come’ versus Radagast and the Blue Wizards as ‘others there were also’. In that way we have two marked arrivals: the one of Curunir and the one of Mithrandir. Of the other three it is unclear when they arrived. For the Blue Wizards that is understandable because they came much earlier and probably even not via Lindon; to reach their final destination in the East other havens used by the Númenoreans at that time would be more suitable like Tharabad or Lond Daer. And for Radagast it is said that he came together with Gandalf, but since he was ‘only’ a companion like Pallando, the marked arrival is that of Gandalf. That means I would not change the original text at RS-SL-31.4 as this is just a reminder about the Blue Wizards that we already introduced much earlier.
But it remains RS-SL-31.3, where I agree that we have to do something. But as might be expected after such a long discussion, I suggest some other change then ArcusCalion. In what follows the removed sentence marked RS-SL-31.6 is included because I wanted a paragraph change here and to provide the source for my insertion at RS-SL-31.3:

RS-SL-31.2b<UT; The Istari Wizard is a translation ...
...
... would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five. The first to come RS-SL-31.3<moved from below to the Grey Havens >the was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order.{(1)} Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and the last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. RS-SL-31.6{ But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.}
>RS-SL-31.5<ORPNone knew at that time whence they were, ...

I saw gandalf85’s plans for including a part of this essay in Of the Five Wizards as well, but for me the parts I added here and in The End of the Third Age fit better where I placed them. But let us see what gandalf85 proposes.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Almost all of these changes are acceptable to me. However, I do not think we can use your RS-SL-31.3. We have no confirmation that the Blue Wizards did not land at the Grey Havens, and indeed there is barely any reason to think that they did not. Therefore, to assert that they did not land there is inventing a fact that Tolkien never stated, and indeed, implied the opposite. Therefore, I still much prefer my own editing in this place. I also await gandalf's draft of his vision of the piece to be place in Of the Five Wizards.

[Findegil]

You are right, since my editing is ‘asserting’ that the Blue Wizards didn’t come via Lindon, we can’t use it. But I would as well not use such a strong reminder that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age as you did. So what about:

Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five. The first to come RS-SL-31.3c<editorial addition in the Third Age >was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; …

This will keep in this Thrid Age chapter completely open the question when the Blue Wizards came.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

That is fine, but can I ask why you don't want to repeat that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age?

[Findegil]

Sorry, I should have explained that directly. It will make things easier if the decision that they have come in the second age is re-discussed with a different result. Since I am sure this discussion will occur, I think it is best to be prepared as far as possible for every possible outcome. It is clear that any other decision then the one we have taken will have a great impact on the chapter Note on the Five Wizards. But with the editing we have done here and in the chapter The End of the Third Age they might be unaffected.
Let us assume the decision would be changed to: we are not sure enough to include a clear statement of the arrival time of the Blue Wizards into our text. Then probably the content of Note on the Five Wizards would be include in volume 3. If the decision would be changed to: we are sure they came in the Third Age, then again the placement of the content of Note on the Five Wizards in volume 3 would be an option, but then of course a placement here would be an possibility as well.
But anyhow, if we would make a clear statement here, without need, we would have to remember it and change it if the decision is changed.
Reading farther in that same mood we should probably change RS-SL-32b and RS-SL-32.2. This is my suggestion:

... Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast RS-SL-32c, and others of the Istari RS-SL-32.2 <UT Istari , clad in sea-blue>RS-SL-32.2<editorial addition have there been, >who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales. >RS-SL-32.5b<UT Istari Now the White Messenger in later days became known Elves as Curunír, …

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I think we can keep it for now, and if we change our consensus on the Second Age change, then we can revisit this.

I like this change.

After reading gandalf's draft for the addition of some of the Istari material to Of the Five Wizards, I agree with his placement, and so it needs to be removed from this draft. We can call that marker RS-SL-31.35.

[Findegil]

Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil