The Hunt for the Ring

[Findegil]

1) I don't think that we must remove this. We have already hinted often to the fact that Saruman had started to desire the Ring and even revealed that he would go to open war against Rohan.

2) I agree to the addition, but I think we should edit it a bit differently:

HR-SL-01.7b<Letter 214 Between 2463 {[}when Déagol the Stoor found the One Ring{, according to the Tale of Years]} and the beginning of Gandalf’s special enquiries ...

3) I agree to both the reordering and ArcusCalion's additional change.

4) As ArcusCalion, I think we should keep the footnote. It is a spoiler, but when we assume that our readers have some knowledge of The Hobbit and LotR they know this anyhow.

5) I agree in principal, but I think we should edit it differently:

... The Orcs assailed the realm of Thranduil, with orders to recapture Gollum; and the Lord of Morgul was sent forth openly to battle against Gondor. These things were done towards the end of June 3018. HR-SL-06.5<Tale of Years {Around the same time,}When Thranduil {is}was attacked{ and} Gollum {escapes}escaped.> HR-SL-07<HR text B In the panic of the first assault, ...

6) We have not included Balin's attemp to re-enter Moria. But I think we should keep the footnote. Maybe we should search in the draft of LotR for some passage to be put in some earlier chapter. But than we would reveal only with this footnote that he failed.

7) I don't think any editing is needed. Saruman does pretend that his knowledge is freshly gained from Gandalf, but from his servant the Witch-King learns that Saruman should have answered him straight away out of his own knowledge. At that is what the text means (at least in our editing).

8) Yes, 1418 is Shire Reconing and I gree that this fact is clear enough, so tha we do not need to change or add a qualifire.

9) I agree not to include that sentence twice. But anyhow I could not finde HR-SL-16.1 neither in my working copy nor in the draft in the private forum. So please ArcusCalion, keep us informed what you add to your drafts if you like to discuss them here.

10) As Sauron I think the Witch-King is unable to understand the motives of his enemies. In Aragorn's place both had taken the Ring from Frodo by force as soon as they had been retired to the room of the Hobbits in the Prancing Pony. So that is what he would have expected, and that Aragorn did join Frodo and not take the Ring from him is what puzzled the Witch-King.

11) Some of these are not typos, but corrections of gramatical short commings of Tolkien's text of The Hunt for the Ring:

-'the' before 'dislike' is missing in the original text.

- Same here:

{[}One{] takes}took the road ...

- '... {[}he{] is} was uneasily aware that many enemies {are}were watching him and though none {has}had yet come with power to challenge him. ...' the 'and is again in the original, so I agree it is not needed.

- '{[}He{] is} was waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away {does}did not reach {[}the Witch-king{]} until the next day.' Here again I agree to adding the 'and' though it is not in the original text.

- 'the Bridge and Bree': Agian this is a change of the original text due to gramatical reason.

- I as well agree to the addition of the '?' for gramatical reasons.

- 'the Bridge': Again the 'the' is not in the original text, but I agree to add it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

1) OK, I'm fine with keeping it since we have heavily hinted at Saruman's betrayal.

2) I was debating whether to keep "when Deagol the Stoor found the One Ring". I agree to keeping it.

3) OK, I agree to ArcusCalion's change.

4) OK, I agree to keeping it, since it is in reference to the discussion about their dislike of water.

5) I agree to Fin's change, it makes the flow a bit smoother.

6) I think we should keep the footnote but include something about Balin's quest to retake Moria in an earlier chapter. I will see if I can find something suitable, where to put it, and post my suggestion in that thread.

7) Reading through the text again with your explanations, I understand it now. However, I still think it is slightly confusing/misleading without some slight editing. I think ArcusCalion's suggestion works, but how about:

The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants HR-SL-13.1 earlier if he had been a true ally.

I think this makes it very clear. My main point of contention is that the text says "he could and should have told Saruon's servants" but that is exactly what he did. The problem, as Arcus explained, is that he should have told them earlier.

8) I personally think we should add "1418 in the Shire reckoning". It is jarring to change to the Shire reckoning all of a sudden, but to me it wasn't implicitly clear; it seemed like a typo/mistake. But if you both don't think it's necessary, I will acquiesce.

10) Yes, I agree it can be explained, so I agree to keep it as is.

11) I figured some of these weren't exactly "typos" but were due to Tolkien rapidly writing his ideas down.

[Findegil]

Okay, reading through our source texts for this chapter, I found two issues we have to deal with: the dates in or text are not in accourdance with the LotR, Appendix B: The Tale of the Years and the dates from The Hunt for the Ring are in themself defective since if the Nazgûl only appear after the attack on Osgiliath on the 20th of June Radagast has not enough time to be called by Saruman, coming to Isengard and searching for Gandalf before Midyear’s Day, which is only 12 days later. But as you will see LotR Companion does not only reveal these issues, it as well helps to solve them.
Here is what I would like to change:
HR-SL-03.1: Here for me the reference of the ‘he’ is not as clear as I would which for, therefore I would change to:

… HR-SL-03.1<moved from below {From}But from Gollum, even under pain, {he}Sauron could not get any clear account, …

HR-SL-03.15: Directly after HR-SL-03.1 I would add the following bit:

... Thus it was that he dared to pretend that he believed that the land the Halflings was near to the places where he had once dwelt beside the banks of the Gladden.> HR-SL-03.15<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). Nonetheless {S[auron]}/Sauron/’s chief fears were directed towards the Havens and Rivendell: he naturally suspected the Westlands.
>HR-SL-03.2<moved from below Now Sauron had never paid heed to the ‘Halflings,’ ...

Now we come to the point were we have to get the Nazgûl to move earlier:

... Now Sauron learning of the capture of Gollum by the chiefs of his enemies was in great haste and fear. HR-SL-05<HR text B When and how this happened cannot of course be known for certain. Probably HR-SL-05.1<editorial addition based on LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). not >long after the event. ...
...
It is thus most likely that the first news of Gollum would be learned by the servants of Dol Guldur after Aragorn entered the Forest; for though the power of Dol Guldur was supposed to come to an end at the Old Forest Road, its spies were many in the wood. The news evidently did HR-SL-05.2{not }reach the Nazgûl commander of Dol Guldur{ for some time, and}, but he probably did not inform Barad-dûr until he had tried to learn more of Gollum's whereabouts. It would then no doubt be late in {April}March before Sauron heard that Gollum had been seen again, apparently captive in the hands of a Man. This might mean little. Neither Sauron nor any of his servants yet knew of Aragorn or who he was. But evidently later (since the lands of Thranduil would now be closely watched), possibly HR-SL-05.3{a month later}<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). sometimes early in April>, Sauron heard the disquieting news that the Wise were aware of Gollum, and that Gandalf had passed into Thranduil's realm.>
...
Now few could withstand even one of these fell creatures, and (as Sauron deemed) none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul. Yet this weakness they had for Sauron's present purpose: so great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and unclad) that their coming forth might soon be perceived and their mission be guessed by the Wise. HR-SL-07a<HR text B But Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the Wise, and the Nazgûl were commanded to act as secretly as they could. Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with HR-SL-08{one other}two others as his {messenger}messengers. <Per Note 1 [Footnote to the text: {From notes counting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it}It was Khamûl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry {(see p.360)}. The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, and with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was {"}one of his {companion}companions from Dol Guldur.{"} Of Khamûl it is said{ here} that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.]> HR-SL-06<HR text B {All}In addition, all except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge.[Footnote to the text: At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn.]>
HR-SL-06.1<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). The Nazgûl {are}were ordered to steal over Anduin one by one and make enquiries. This {is}was ordered soon after {S[auron] learns}/Sauron/ learned that Gollum (who disappeared into the {D[ead]}/Dead/ Marshed) has been captured and is with Thranduil, and that Gandalf has visted that realm.{ *Say sometime early in April.}
At first the Nazgûl {investigate}investigated Anduin’s Vale,{ ...} but {can}could find no trace of the Ring or ‘Baggins’ {...}/therefore/ some {begin}began to investigate Rohan.{ ...} Sauron {is}was already in in communication with Saruman {[illegible]}/with the help of the/ Palantír; but {has}had not yet mastered him, Yet he {reads}had read enough of his mind to suspect {(a) }that he {covets}coveted the Ring for himself and {(b) } that he knows something about it. The Nazgûl {are}were therefore ordered to visit Saruman. Saruman {is v[ery]}was /very/ frightened at {S[auron]}/Sauron/’s suspicion of himself and his knowledge of the Ring. Though he {dislikes}disliked Gandalf intensely and {is v[ery]}was /very/ jealous of him, he {belives G[andalf]}belived /Gandalf/ knows something vital about the Ring because the Nazgûl {[?ask]}/knew/ of the Shire which {has}had always been a great concern of Gandalf, and because his agents {have}had discovered that it {is extraord[inarily]}was /extraorninarily/ closely guarded; /and /also that Gandalf {is}was now actually there since {12 }April the twelfth. {He [}Saruman{]} therefore {thinks}thought of geting {his [}Gandalf’s{]} help.{ ...}
The Nazgûl, then, came to Isengad towards early{?} June. Saruman was helped at this point {[}by{] g[ood]}/ good/ fortune. Radagast {becomes}became aware that the Nazgûl {are}were abroad in Anduin Vale spreading panic and searching for ‘Shire’. He {becomes v[ery]}became /very/ alarmed and {can}could think of nothing but to go and consult Saruman head of the order of Wizards. He {does}did so{ ...}not long after the visit of the Nazgûl to Isengard. Saruman {knows}knew that Radagast {is}was a kinsman of Gandalf’s and wholly trusted by him: he {uses}used him as messenger, and {sends}sent him off to the Shire. Radagst {leaves}left Isengard about June {15th} the fintenth.{ ...}
Soon after Sauron whishing to distract attention from the Nazgûl{ attacks Osgiliath. The Witch-King ... captures bridge and passes into Gondor. ...}>{So it was that Sauron} prepared two strokes – in which many saw the beginnings of the War of the Ring. They were made together. The Orcs assailed the realm of Thranduil, with orders to recapture Gollum; and the Lord of Morgul was sent forth openly to battle against Gondor. These things were done towards the end of June 3018. HR-SL-06.2<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). Several of the Nazgûl {must remain}remained in {A[duin]}/Anduin/ Vale. One or more actually {direct}directed the attack on Tharanduil when Gollum {escapes}escaped. Sauron {thinks}thought it vital to have him captured again and/or killed.>
HR-SL-09b<HR text D It seems clear that pursued both by Elves and Orcs Gollum crossed the Anduin, probably by swimming, and so eluded the hunt of Sauron; but being still hunted by Elves, and not yet daring to pass near Lórien (only the lure of the Ring itself made him dare to do this afterwards), he hid himself in Moria. That was probably in the autumn of the year; after which all trace of him was lost.
What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria,[Footnote to the text: These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers.] especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward, his purpose being to find ‘Shire’ himself as quickly as he could; but he became lost, and it was a very long time before he found his way about. It thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the West-gate when the Nine Walkers arrived. He knew nothing, of course, about the action of the doors. To him they would seem huge and immovable; and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust, he did not discover that. In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the Orcs were mostly in the East-end of Moria, and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open.[Footnote to the text: According to the Dwarves this needed usually the thrust of two; only a very strong Dwarf could open them single-handed. Before the desertion of Moria doorwards were kept inside the West-gate and one at least was always there. In this way a single person (and so any intruder or person trying to escape) could not get out without permission.] It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.>
...
...
Therefore when Osgiliath was taken and the bridge broken Sauron stayed the assault, and the Nazgûl were ordered to begin the search for the Ring.>
HR-SL-07.2<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270).{2/3}/Tow or three/ Nazgûl still {prowl}prowled about Rohan and{ [?]}in Dunland, and up towards Eregion. They {are}were rather timid and ineffectual without {[}the{] W[itch]}/ Witch/-king. Also they {will}would not cross Greyflood into ‘enemy Elvish country’ without his leadership or express command.>
The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin, ...
...
At length they returned; but the summer was now far waned, and the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting. When they came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dûr conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the going forth of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds, and the capture of Gandalf. From these things he concluded indeed that neither Saruman nor any other of the Wise had possession yet of the Ring, but that Saruman at least knew where it might be hidden. HR-SL-07.3<LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270). This {is}was enough to make {S[auron]}/Sauron/ suspect that the Wise {know}knew about the Ring, and that some tryst {is}was arranged in Rivendell. His suspicions of Saruman {are}were redoubled. He {has}had caught {S[aruman]}/Saruman/ again in the palantír.> Speed alone would now serve, and secrecy must be abandoned.

What is left are the slightly different dates in HR and LotR, Appendix B: In Appendix B Gandalf stayed one day shorter in Edoras:

... He {says}said he {will}would speak of it again {next day. But on the next day 21 September,}later. Then Wormtongue {reappears}reappeared. It was really for him that Théoden waited (since he {has}had become enthralled by his counsel).
...
So on {22}the twenty-first of {[}September{]} Gandalf {leaves}left Edoras and {goes}went to the horse-sheds. ...

And last but not least HR-SL-13.1 were I understood the wish to make it clearer:

... The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants HR-SL-13.1 striaght away if he had been a true ally. ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Oh good catch Fin! I have a few points.

First, I would make this slight change for smoothness of transition:

... It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.>
HR-SL-07b <HR text B Meanwhile, In the panic of the first assault on Osgiliath, when the Witch-king was allowed to reveal himself briefly in his full terror, the Nazgûl crossed the bridge at night and dispersed northwards.> Thus Sauron tested ....

Second, in this narrative you've made, the Nazgul search the Vale of Anduin twice. Is this what Tolkien intended? It makes no sense to me that they would search the Vale of Anduin twice, especially since they find nothing both times.

[gandalf85]

Great catch, Fin! I think it's feasible the Nazgul would search the Anduin Vale twice because the area is rather large, and Sauron himself suspected it was where the Shire was based on information from Gollum. I found a few typos/grammatical issues.

A slight change to HR-SL-05.2 to make it sound smoother:

The news evidently HR-SL-05.2b{did not reach}reached the Nazgûl commander of Dol Guldur

Some typos in this part (Marshed and visted):

}/Sauron/ learned that Gollum (who disappeared into the {D[ead]}/Dead/ Marshed) has been captured and is with Thranduil, and that Gandalf has visted that realm.{ *Say sometime early in April.}

There is also a change of tense from past to present. Fixing these issues:

}/Sauron/ learned that Gollum (who disappeared into the {D[ead]}/Dead/ Marshes) {has}had been captured and {is}was with Thranduil, and that Gandalf has visited that realm.{ *Say sometime early in April.}

In HR-SL-05.3:

possibly HR-SL-05.3 {a month later} <LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I:270). sometimes early in April

I don't have a copy of the LotR Companion, but this should be "sometime".

I think there should be more punctuation to the sentence starting "At first the Nazgul...". I added a semicolon and a comma:

At first the Nazgûl {investigate}investigated Anduin’s Vale,{ ...} but {can}could find no trace of the Ring or ‘Baggins’; {...}/therefore/, some {begin}began to investigate Rohan.{ ...}

"in" is repeated twice in the next sentence. "belived" should be "believed", "extraorninarily" should be "extraordinarily", "Isengad" should be "Isengard", "whishing" should be "wishing", "Tharanduil" should be "Thranduil" and "Tow" should be "two".

Other than that, I have one question:

Though he {dislikes}disliked Gandalf intensely and {is v[ery]}was /very/ jealous of him, he {belives G[andalf]}believed /Gandalf/ {knows}knew something vital about the Ring because the Nazgûl {[?ask]}/knew/ of the Shire which {has}had always been a great concern of Gandalf, and because his agents {have}had discovered that it {is extraord[inarily]}was /extraordinarily/ closely guarded; /and /also that Gandalf {is}was now actually there since {12 }April the twelfth.

Saruman believes Gandalf knew something vital about the Ring because the Nazgul knew about the Shire. How does Saruman know what the Nazgul know? This is before the conversation between Saruman and the Nazgul, right?

[Findegil]

Dooble search of the Anduin Vale: Wenn we read the original Hunt for the Ring text the Vale is as well searched twice (but proberbly not by Nazgûl): The Witch-king decisded to search there even so he got the message from Khamûl that no trace of the Shire could be found. And in the new context we here from the Nazgûl proling in Rohan and Dunland that they are ‘rather timid and uneffective’ without their leader. So for me it is reasonable that the Witch-king repeated the search considering that he had no better information.
Now to the other remarks:
HR-SL-02.5b: Agreed.

Mashed and visted, “in”, “belived”, “extraorninarly”, “Isengad”, “whishing”, “Tharanduil” and “Tow”: Thanks for catching. These are real typos of mine for sure. And I also missed to do the time change in that sentence with the Mashed and visted. But must we not as well change ‘has visited’ to ‘had visted’?

HR-SL-05.3: Right, and so it is in the original text, as can be seen at the end of the sentence with Mashed and visted.

Punctuation in “At First the Nazgûl ...”: Agreed.

Saruman belives Gandalf knew something vital about the Ring: In the new version of the story springing from the fact that Radagast must have more time, Saruman is visted much earlier (before the attack on Osgiliath) by some Nazgûl after they did not find any trace of teh Shire in the Anduin Vale. Radagast is concerned about that search and reaches Isengard to the advantage of Saruman shortly after the Nazgûl had been there.
The Second visit is not mentioned in the text from LotR Companion; The Council of Elrond; 257 (I: 270)., but it also not denied. For me it seems clear that two or three Nazgûl visited Saruman and stayed in that area until the Wtich-king himself collected them all for another visit to Isengard. At the fist visit Sauron suspects only the motives of Saruman st the time of the second visit he is sure that Saruman is betraying him. But in both cases the Nazgûl involved did not have the full picture, so that Saruman could decive them.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Yes, it should be "had visited". I missed that one.

Regarding the Nazgul and Saruman, that makes more sense if there are two visits.