* * Valaquenta Some proposals for a new project ... * *

[ArcusCalion]

It does not suggest that at all to be honest, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I was more concerned with the flow of it, since at the moment it is very awkward.

[Findegil]

Vala-07.23: What exactly is awakward on the sentence?

For he was the greatest power under Eru (that means the greatest created power).

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Ah i missed the parentheses and the 'that means.' this does make it flow better.

[Arvegil145]

I found an interesting passage in PE 15, p. 96:

Eriol asks innocently is not Aule him that we call Wéland and they (Rúmil?) laughing says no and tells of Velindo or Gwilion the fay - one of Aule's folk who was sent by Aule into the world to fetch at his need some of the good heavy red gold of the dwarves.

There his pride swelled by reason of the amazement of men and dwarves at his skill; and he never returned to Aule but set up on his own - and was once famous far and wide but with the fading of the fairies his power has waned.

He was not wicked but very vain - Eriol touches on the Böðvildr legend and Rúmil says that if it is true it shows the vanity of Wéland (Niðhad must be a dwarf king).

Mind you, in the early legendarium 'fays' were the precursors of the Maiar.

If we take away the references to Eriol and Rumil, and replace 'fairies' with 'Elves', I think we can incorporate this passage into TNS.

[Findegil]

When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)

And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)

And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'?

Respectfully
Findegil

1) I think Velindo/Gwilion fits neatly in Of the Maiar

2) We simply remove all references to Eriol, Rumil, Bodhvildr and Nidhhad - and we only keep the material relating to Velindo and Aule, such as this:

Velindo (or Gwilion) was a Maia of Aulë's folk who was sent by Aulë to Middle-earth to fetch at his need some of the good heavy red gold of the Dwarves.

However, there his pride swelled by reason of the amazement of Men and Dwarves at his skill; and he never returned to Aulë but set up on his own - and was once famous far and wide but with the eventual fading of the Elves his power has waned. While not wicked, he was still very vain.

I may have taken some liberties in the wording, but the gist is the same.


My only problem lies with the name 'Velindo' (and 'Gwilion').

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)

And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'?

Respectfully
Findegil

Also, what exactly is the problem with 'Manir' and 'Suruli' (aside from linguistics)? Weren't there countless unnamed Maiar in the later legendarium?

According to another PE text (PE 14, 'The Creatures of the Earth', pp. 9-10), there's plenty of minor 'Maiar' ('fay') factions:

1) 'Nermir' - fays (i.e. Maiar) of the meads

2) 'Tavari' - fays (Maiar) of the woods

3) 'Nandini' - fays (Maiar) of the valleys

4) 'Orossi' - fays (Maiar) of the mountains

5) 'Manir' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar)

6) 'Suruli' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar)

7) 'Malkarauki' - fays (Balrogs - still probably Maiar)


And yet according to another PE 14 text (simply called 'Valar', p. 10), the 'fays' (i.e. Maiar) are divided into 4 elemental groups: air, earth, water, and fire:

1) Air: 'Manir', 'Suruli'

2) Earth: 'Tavari', 'Nermir', 'Nandini', 'Pelloini' (not seen before), 'Alandri' (not seen before) - while 'Orossi' is missing from the list

3) Water: 'Wingildi', 'Oarni/Oaritsi', 'Nenuvar', 'Ailior', 'Ektelarni', 'Capalini' - not of whom were seen before

4) Fire: - - no entries - - (see below, under 'Sacha')



However, there are also individual 'fays/fairies/early Valar' (i.e. Maiar) named throughout Parma Eldalamberon:

1) Sacha (or Sáya) - the "fire-fay", only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 66)

2) Ailinónë - a 'fay' that dwelt on a lily on a pool, probably one of the Nenuvar, only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 29)

3) Nardi - a 'flower-Vala/fairy', only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 68)

4) Tavros - the chief 'wood-fay', probably one of the Tavari, only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 69)

5) Tethil (or Tetillë) - a 'flower fay' inhabiting poppies, mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 70), as well as the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 92)

[Aiwendil]

Just realizing now that there were changes to our text from 2019 that I haven't looked at yet. I will review these when I get a chance. I am, however, on vacation with limited Internet access for the next week.

I remain skeptical about inserting a host of names of Maiar from early sources, though I do not have access to PE14 and PE15. Also, the argument I see against Velindo/Gwilion is that it seems that the whole intention behind him was to be Weland. To retain him while eliminating the whole point of his existence does not sit right with me.