The Power of Galadriel in the Third age- That of a Maiar?

[denethorthefirst]

If I remember correctly Tolkien stated that the power of some of the older Eldar (and especially if they had been re-housed, for example Glorfindel) was comparable to that of some of the Maiar. Galadriel was (in the Third Age) clearly on of the oldest remaining Elves in Middle-Earth and Tolkien even went so far in his later writings to state that she was the second most powerful of the Noldor (after Feanor): "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years" (from Unfinished Tales). Considering all that it seem plausible that Galadriel was at least as powerful as some of the weaker Maiar (for example Radagast, or one of the other hundred unnamed helper-spirits). From a story-perspective she has to be that powerful to be a credible opponent to Sauron (Tolkien mentioned that only Saurons personal, active presence could have worn down the defenses of Lorien). But it is also quite clear that she was still less powerful than Sauron and that she would not have been able to master the One Ring. Tolkien stated in a Letter (No. 246) that:

"Of the others [non-mortals in the story] only Gandalf might be expected to master him [the One Ring] – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form... [...] Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated [by Galadriel]".

Sauron was spiritually more powerful than Galadriel. But while a battle between an Elda and an Umaia is in large parts a spiritual battle, the physical realities are a factor too - and the simple fact is that Sauron (in his unique incarnation) was also physically superior, a lot taller and bigger, heavier and stronger than the elf-woman Galadriel. In my opinion Sauron just outclassed Galadriel in every way: spiritually, physically, mentally. I think that in a hypothetical 1 on 1 confrontation Galadriel would not even stand a chance against Sauron, Ring or no Ring.

The One Ring seduced everyone in its reach and filled the minds with delusions of grandeur and power, like a euphoria inducing drug almost. Galadriel was obviously not immune to that effect, so she is not a reliable narrator regarding the One Ring and her ability to master it, another quote from the letter:

"In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not sure if it's helpful when discussing Tolkien to think of "power" as something quantifiable, a number on a dice-roll table. Power is a very broad word which applies to all sorts of things, including natural phenomena and intangible ideas. A bear is powerful; so is a bulldozer, a Browning M2 , and Bach's B-minor Mass.


Of course here we're talking about what Hobbits clumsily mis-call "magic"; but even there Galadriel's Mirror and Thranduil's automatic gates aren't really the same sort of "magic" power. It's not like saying, "See! Eonwe has a Level 30 Magic Blast, but Galadriel with a +12 Nenya Bonus has the equivalent of a Level 32!"

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'm not sure if it's helpful when discussing Tolkien to think of "power" as something quantifiable, a number on a dice-roll table. Power is a very broad word which applies to all sorts of things, including natural phenomena and intangible ideas. A bear is powerful; so is a bulldozer, a Browning M2 , and Bach's B-minor Mass.


Of course here we're talking about what Hobbits clumsily mis-call "magic"; but even there Galadriel's Mirror and Thranduil's automatic gates aren't really the same sort of "magic" power. It's not like saying, "See! Eonwe has a Level 30 Magic Blast, but Galadriel with a +12 Nenya Bonus has the equivalent of a Level 32!"

Seconded.

Whenever I glance at this thread I keep thinking about Hurin standing down Morgoth. Clearly there is a huge gap in their existential rank - this is not elf vs Maia, this is Man vs one of the most powerful Ainu, they're not even close. The physical exhibitions of their power, what Sam would call magic that one can see, are also nowhere close. But Hurin stands down Morgoth and his willpower in that moment is at least equal to that of Morgoth's. It doesn't mean Hurin has the power of an Ainu, it means he's one heck of a man and we all admire him for it. Power doesn't come in one dimension, so it's hard to make generalized conparisons. I guess my point is, Galadriel doesn't need to have the power of a Maia to be one heck of an Elf.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'm not sure if it's helpful when discussing Tolkien to think of "power" as something quantifiable, a number on a dice-roll table. Power is a very broad word which applies to all sorts of things, including natural phenomena and intangible ideas. A bear is powerful; so is a bulldozer, a Browning M2 , and Bach's B-minor Mass.


Of course here we're talking about what Hobbits clumsily mis-call "magic"; but even there Galadriel's Mirror and Thranduil's automatic gates aren't really the same sort of "magic" power. It's not like saying, "See! Eonwe has a Level 30 Magic Blast, but Galadriel with a +12 Nenya Bonus has the equivalent of a Level 32!"

This is good perspective and certainly correct. But to be fair, and not to put the brakes on fun too much, even Tolkien did a good bit of direct power ranking. When these questions come up, I usually have in mind the Nazgul fleeing Glorfindel's revealed wrath, or Gandalf on one side of a door with Durin's Bane on the other: metaphysical conflicts in which spiritual wills press on one another. That dynamic has always made intuitive sense to me, like the Devil fleeing from the sign of the cross or something, and Tolkien's vocabulary of power seems to imply he often had something similar in mind. Power is often something recognized and its proof by manifestation as some technique or other seems rarely necessary, except when two powers are fairly evenly matched.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by obloquy

This is good perspective and certainly correct. But to be fair, and not to put the brakes on fun too much, even Tolkien did a good bit of direct power ranking. When these questions come up, I usually have in mind the Nazgul fleeing Glorfindel's revealed wrath, or Gandalf on one side of a door with Durin's Bane on the other: metaphysical conflicts in which spiritual wills press on one another. That dynamic has always made intuitive sense to me, like the Devil fleeing from the sign of the cross or something, and Tolkien's vocabulary of power seems to imply he often had something similar in mind. Power is often something recognized and its proof by manifestation as some technique or other seems rarely necessary, except when two powers are fairly evenly matched.

Well, yes; but even in direct combat matchups, there's a certain rock-paper-scissors dynamic, like the classic infantry-cavalry-artillery triangle. Glorfindel was uniquely dangerous to the W-K, because as a Noldorin Exile he "lived at once on both sides" and thus presented a direct threat in the shadow-dimension where the W-K "lived." Note that the WK does not flee from, in fact taunts, Gandalf, even though in raw "power" GtW almost certainly has more wattage.

(But Gandalf's a Maia! you say. Surely he too "lives on both sides." Except he's an Istar, which means as long as he's in that situation he is, effectively, a conditionally-immortal human sorceror.)

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, yes; but even in direct combat matchups, there's a certain rock-paper-scissors dynamic, like the classic infantry-cavalry-artillery triangle. Glorfindel was uniquely dangerous to the W-K, because as a Noldorin Exile he "lived at once on both sides" and thus presented a direct threat in the shadow-dimension where the W-K "lived." Note that the WK does not flee from, in fact taunts, Gandalf, even though in raw "power" GtW almost certainly has more wattage.

(But Gandalf's a Maia! you say. Surely he too "lives on both sides." Except he's an Istar, which means as long as he's in that situation he is, effectively, a conditionally-immortal human sorceror.)

I've always attributed WK's confidence to his own flawed judgment, rather than any real perception of spiritual superiority on his part. He was lucky Gandalf was so committed to his Istarin role, because he had no idea what Gandalf truly was. I disagree that Glorfindel was uniquely dangerous to Nazgul: he was also handful enough for a First Age Balrog. An example of "rock-paper-scissors" might be the humble will of a Frodo or a Samwise withstanding the focused spiritual pressure of Sauron through his Ring, in his domain. But we know that this could never have been a Hobbit victory, only a more or less slow descent into slavery. This is an echo of the overarching metaphysic whereby the holy creative power of the Ainur, and the presence of the Noldor in Middle-earth, have held out for ages against the degeneration wrought into the fabric of existence by Melkor, but it is ultimately his will, primevally prime, that will dominate all others.

Speaking of all this, I can't wait to see the orc-wrecking swordplay of Luthien Tinuviel, Greatest of the Eldar, on TV. I hope it's choreographed like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. (I also hope the role is given to a strong woman of color, obviously.)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

When I said Glorfindel was "uniquely dangerous," I didn't mean that his power was dangerous to Nazgul in particular, but rather that Glorfindel in particular was dangerous to Nazgul: High-elven Exiles possessed the ability to get to their "vitals" on the other side of the veil where it was safe from anyone else. (Merry, Pippin and Sam possessed whatever the equivalent of holy water or kryptonite was to Wraiths, but not one the WK would have been aware of. Against any other opponent, they were just swords.)

Aragorn possessed no "magic" power at all- but. He certainly had certain Powers of Heredity, starting on the prosaic side with the automatic deference of most Dunedain who learned who he was, but also extending to the Power of Legitimate Hereditary Ownership to wrest the Palantir from Sauron himself; and of course the Power of Inherited Sworn Obligation to command the Dead of Dunharrow.

‘Dangerous!’ cried Gandalf. ‘And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by obloquy

(I also hope the role is given to a strong woman of color, obviously.)

Not a strong lesbian trans-woman of color? Sexist homophobe pig!