What If: The Noldor never leave

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think you're misjudging this a little. Manwe's understanding of the Music doesn't seem to have been 'here are the things which will happen' (otherwise, y'know, the Death of the Trees would surely have made an impact?); it's more the certain knowledge of something everyone else has to take on faith: that 'he that attempteth [to alter the Music] shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

I admit that it's more than possible that I've misjudged this. Yet, that (out-of-character) passage which Zigûr quoted, from Morgoth's Ring is a little difficult to reconcile with the (in-character) passages from The Silmarillion:

"But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm."

No?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I admit that it's more than possible that I've misjudged this. Yet, that (out-of-character) passage which Zigûr quoted, from Morgoth's Ring is a little difficult to reconcile with the (in-character) passages from The Silmarillion:

No?

... nope. Not to me, rather. My reading of the combined passages is this:

-Manwe, unlike most of the Ainur, understood that all evil will turn to good in time. (Morgoth's Ring)

-When confronted by Melkor's evil, he at first conceived of the prospective good as a deliberate, joint effort between the Eldar and the Valar. He therefore counselled that the Noldor should remain. (Silm 9 - 1)

--Remember that previously, the big 'turn to good' moments have mostly been by the active participation of the Valar. The demiurgic wars of creation were made right when Almaren was built. The wrack of the Lamps brought about Yavanna's creation of the Trees. Melkor's dominion led to Varda's creation of the new stars, the awakening of the Eldar, and ultimately Melkor's captivity. Yes, there are small things, like the formation of ice and snow, but in the grand scale, 'evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come' had been about Melkor breaking things, and the Valar restoring them better than before.

-When Feanor's reply reached Manwe, he had a moment of revelation: sometimes, the turn to good was not his to shape. He had tried his strategy, but - for the first time - a people not under direct Melkorian influence had defied him. His world-view didn't change, but his understanding of it did. (Silm 11)

--He tells us this directly. The songs of the Noldor will be 'beauty not before conceived' - ie, not only the Noldor, but the Valar themselves had no conception of the heights the rebel Eldar could reach.

-The Doom of Mandos is in another mode, and comes from a different mind. While Manwe is contemplating the Good to come, Mandos is thinking of the Evil that has already been done, and the Evil that yet will come of it. He says as much, in direct reply to Manwe's comments about 'evil yet be good to have been'. And yet remain evil, the Doomsman bluntly points out.

It's easy to imagine Manwe and Namo arguing over this during their councils, with the Windlord inclined to forgive everything because It'll All Come Right, and Namo arguing for longer and longer incarceration for dead Noldor so It Doesn't Happen Again. And then Ulmo shows up and berates the both of them for not doing anything about that advancing Numenorean fleet...

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It's easy to imagine Manwe and Namo arguing over this during their councils, with the Windlord inclined to forgive everything because It'll All Come Right, and Namo arguing for longer and longer incarceration for dead Noldor so It Doesn't Happen Again. And then Ulmo shows up and berates the both of them for not doing anything about that advancing Numenorean fleet...

Just wait till they have to divide the budget...


But seriously. The idea that ultimately all will come to follow the Plan may be a reconciliation of free will in a predestined world or of bad people in a good world, but it doesn't make bad things good. There's gotta be some responsibility and accountability in the moment regardless of "The Plan" in the distant future. I think I agree with Mandos here, even though I don't think most things the Noldor did in their exodus were evil.