Please Help me Understand Gondor Stewardship and Kingship

[Inziladun]

The Steward of Gondor was originally sort of an "underking", charged with aiding the King with day-to-day operations and carrying out his orders.
When King Earnur died, no accepted claimant to the throne could be found, so his Steward acted as regent. That continued until the War of the Ring. The Ruling Stewards were legally only regents until a new King was crowned, though most in Gondor by that time probably thought it would never happen.

The realm in Arnor had no Steward or similar position. Upon King Arvedui's death, it was really just a kingdom in name only. His line continued, though they became "Chieftains", owing to the depopulated nature of Arnor.

As for why Aragorn waited so long, he had Elrond, Gandalf, and history, to guide him.

Elrond told Aragorn he could not be wed to Arwen unless he, as the only living Heir of Elendil, could regain the Crown of Gondor and the Sceptre of Arnor, which of course, could only happen after Sauron was defeated.

A reason his precedents never tried to assert their lineage to Gondor goes back to Arvedui. While he was the king of Arnor, he tried to take the Crown as well, as Elendil's heir and the husband of the sister of the most recent (deceased) king of Gondor. His claim was rejected, and Gondor found someone else.

If Arvedui, as King of Arnor, didn't impress the higher-ups of Gondor, a "chieftain" with no capital city, no fortress, and only the shadow of a fighting force, would have had no chance at the Kingship of Gondor.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Arvedui, as King of Arnor, didn't impress the higher-ups of Gondor, a "chieftain" with no capital city, no fortress, and only the shadow of a fighting force, would have had no chance at the Kingship of Gondor.

Indeed; even Aragorn's claim was unpalatable to Denethor, who knew of his coming, calling him "last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."

It might also be worth pointing out that as far as the Dúnedain were concerned, the King also held the effective role of "priest" (see Letter 156) and this lapsed with the kingship, not being restored until Aragorn took the throne. This was, according to that letter, because the Kings were the descendants of Lúthien, and thus of Melian, and thus of Eru Himself, in a sense.

As such it appears that while the Stewards held the political authority of the King, they did not hold the spiritual authority, which simply did not exist when the realm had no king. EDIT: I might be wrong about this! See the end of my next post.

(I think this also reflects what Professor Tolkien tells us about Denethor's attitude to the war, ie that he opposed Sauron purely for political rather than spiritual reasons.)

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Very good and thank you. Question, so the King of Arnor rightly also is king of Gondor? but the king or steward of gondor not the rightful king of Arnor had it survived.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

Very good and thank you. Question, so the King of Arnor rightly also is king of Gondor? but the king or steward of gondor not the rightful king of Arnor had it survived.

If I understand correctly, it's a bit complicated. The heir of Elendil was High King of the Dúnedain. So while Isildur was, after Elendil's death, King of Arnor and High King of the Dúnedain, at a certain point he gave the Kingship of Gondor over to his nephew Meneldil, Anárion's son. Afterwards, the Lords of Gondor would claim that the King of Gondor had to be descended from Anárion since Isildur gave the Kingship to Anárion's son.

Therefore, unless I'm mistaken, the reason Aragorn was able to claim the kingship of Gondor as well as the High Kingship and kingship of Arnor was because he was descended from Arvedui, King of Arthedain, and Fíriel, Arvedui's wife, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. He (and the other chieftains of the Dúnedain in the North before him) were thus descended from the royal families of both kingdoms, from both Isildur and Anárion. (The kingship could pass down through both male and female lines; that was Númenórean tradition, hence the Ruling Queens. The Dúnedain of Middle-earth had simply ceased to observe it – as came up when Arvedui tried to claim the throne of Gondor himself).

Incidentally it seems that after Isildur's death the "High King" position stopped being used until Aragorn restored it. Maybe it was because the Kings of Arnor by that point had no power or influence over Gondor and the wider Dúnedain people. It seems this was something Meneldil desired, as he hoped that "affairs in the North would keep them [Isildur and his sons] long occupied." (Unfinished Tales)

Then again maybe I'm overcomplicating it and by claiming the High Kingship Aragorn was able to just take back the rule of Gondor as the High King of the whole Dúnedain people.

EDIT: I might also be partially wrong about my "the Steward lacked the spiritual authority" thing, because Cirion called upon Eru at the swearing of the Oath of Eorl as the King's representative. Nonetheless Letter 156 suggests that the Steward did not hold the same "priestly" position as the King.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Therefore, unless I'm mistaken, the reason Aragorn was able to claim the kingship of Gondor as well as the High Kingship and kingship of Arnor was because he was descended from Arvedui, King of Arthedain, and Fíriel, Arvedui's wife, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. He (and the other chieftains of the Dúnedain in the North before him) were thus descended from the royal families of both kingdoms. (The kingship could pass down through both male and female lines; that was Númenórean tradition, hence the Ruling Queens. The Dúnedain of Middle-earth had simply ceased to observe it – as came up when Arvedui claimed the throne of Gondor himself).

Then again maybe I'm overcomplicating it and by claiming the High Kingship he was able to just take back the rule of Gondor as the High King of the whole Dúnedain people.

My understanding was that Anarion's line was dead, there were no descendants of Elendil left in Gondor. Thus, the closest people to the throne by male lineage were the "northern cousins", Isildur's line. However, perhaps my understanding is overly simplistic, and further analysis of family trees and laws of inheritance would prove me wrong.

In truth though, the most immediate reason for why Aragorn got his kingship when he did and why his ancestors failed is because Aragorn earned it. He was not raised to the throne because of Elendil's blood - though that seems to be a necessary prerequisite - but because by the strength of his will, by his deeds, by his extraordinary skill he proved himself to be above other men, he earned the people's love and he proved himself worthy of their ultimate loyalty. Blood alone would only have gotten him as far as the other Chieftans and late Kings of Arnor who were sneered at by the southern kingdom. Meeting the bloodline "prerequisites" made Aragorn eligible to be King, but he was named King because he earned it with his own life and not just with the lives of his ancestors.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My understanding was that Anarion's line was dead, there were no descendants of Elendil left in Gondor. Thus, the closest people to the throne by male lineage were the "northern cousins", Isildur's line. However, perhaps my understanding is overly simplistic, and further analysis of family trees and laws of inheritance would prove me wrong.

In truth though, the most immediate reason for why Aragorn got his kingship when he did and why his ancestors failed is because Aragorn earned it. He was not raised to the throne because of Elendil's blood - though that seems to be a necessary prerequisite - but because by the strength of his will, by his deeds, by his extraordinary skill he proved himself to be above other men, he earned the people's love and he proved himself worthy of their ultimate loyalty. Blood alone would only have gotten him as far as the other Chieftans and late Kings of Arnor who were sneered at by the southern kingdom. Meeting the bloodline "prerequisites" made Aragorn eligible to be King, but he was named King because he earned it with his own life and not just with the lives of his ancestors.

My understanding has always been that Aragorn didn't claim the throne of Gondor per se, but the throne of the entire Dunedain kingdom. That included being king of Gondor, but wasn't the same as claiming to be the rightful heir to Anárion (which would have been a tricky proposition, since Gondor had already rejected that claim once).

As for the rest of your post - I agree. Aragorn earned the goodwill to restore the High King position by his actions, not by his ancestors. As Thingol said to Beren waaaay back in the day, 'a father's deeds, even had his service been rendered to me, avail not to win the [throne of Gondor]'.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

EDIT: I might also be partially wrong about my "the Steward lacked the spiritual authority" thing, because Cirion called upon Eru at the swearing of the Oath of Eorl as the King's representative. Nonetheless Letter 156 suggests that the Steward did not hold the same "priestly" position as the King.

It is entirely possible that Cirion was continuing the Stewards' habit of claiming more authority than he rightfully had. Pelendur started this by rejecting Arvedui's claim to the throne for the far weaker one of General Earnil (and by making his own post hereditary, which seems likely to have been a condition of accepting Earnil's claim); Mardil 'the Faithful' continued it by seizing the throne in all but name when Earnur vanished, and ultimately Denethor II capped the whole thing by attempting to prevent the accession of High King Elessar to the throne. It would not be surprising if Cirion - who was already in the middle of selling off a chunk of Gondor to buy an alliance, and relocating the most sacred site in the nation - didn't quite have the divine authority he asserted he did.

hS

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It is entirely possible that Cirion was continuing the Stewards' habit of claiming more authority than he rightfully had. Pelendur started this by rejecting Arvedui's claim to the throne for the far weaker one of General Earnil (and by making his own post hereditary, which seems likely to have been a condition of accepting Earnil's claim); Mardil 'the Faithful' continued it by seizing the throne in all but name when Earnur vanished, and ultimately Denethor II capped the whole thing by attempting to prevent the accession of High King Elessar to the throne. It would not be surprising if Cirion - who was already in the middle of selling off a chunk of Gondor to buy an alliance, and relocating the most sacred site in the nation - didn't quite have the divine authority he asserted he did.

Yes it's an interesting proposition. Cirion's part of the Oath of Eorl is presented in quite positive language, though: "his oath astounded those who heard it, and filled them with awe, and was alone (over and above the venerable tomb) sufficient to hallow the place where it was spoken." It seems as if Cirion's act was performed in good faith. I agree, however, that the same can't necessarily be said of all the Stewards.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It is entirely possible that Cirion was continuing the Stewards' habit of claiming more authority than he rightfully had. Pelendur started this by rejecting Arvedui's claim to the throne for the far weaker one of General Earnil (and by making his own post hereditary, which seems likely to have been a condition of accepting Earnil's claim); Mardil 'the Faithful' continued it by seizing the throne in all but name when Earnur vanished, and ultimately Denethor II capped the whole thing by attempting to prevent the accession of High King Elessar to the throne. It would not be surprising if Cirion - who was already in the middle of selling off a chunk of Gondor to buy an alliance, and relocating the most sacred site in the nation - didn't quite have the divine authority he asserted he did.

While I do actually agree with the various points that have been made in response to this, including William Cloud Hicklin's point that the utter lack of female inheritance in Gondor means Arvedui really didn't have much of a claim on the throne through his wife, and the ragged state of Arthedain meant a high kingship claim wasn't going to fly... I have just uncovered yet another possible instance of the Stewards of Gondor overstepping their bounds.

It's 1636. Two years ago, King Minardil was killed by the great-grandsons of Castamir the Usurper, who pulled off a highly successful raid on Pelargir. His son, Telemnar, is on the throne... but the Great Plague hits. Telemnar and his family die. His brother, Minastan, also apparently dies. The heir to the throne is his son, Tarondor, who never expected to hold it.

Except... Sangahyando and Angamaitë, Castamir's descendents, also have a claim. They too are a younger branch of the royal line, one that branched off a few generations earlier. Unlike Telemnar, they have only Numenorean blood - that was the whole point of Castamir's revolt, that by marrying a princess of Rhovanion his cousin Valacar had sullied the bloodline (and you know, you know that there were still Gondorians who agreed with that). And at a time when Gondor was crippled by plague, Umbar was still strong - it had, after all, taken a military victory over Gondor just two years earlier.

There are no direct hints in Tolkien's writings that the Steward considered handing the throne to the Umbar line. Except... other than his death, one of the only things said about Minardil on the wiki is that after his reign, the kings 'always chose their stewards from among Húrin [of Emyn Arnen]'s descendants'.

It does not take a lot of imagination to picture Steward Húrin going to Prince Tarondor, hiding from the plague in Minas Anor, and saying, "There's a faction - a powerful faction - that wants to pass you over. The Usurper's descendents are strong - they could renew the watch on Mordor, and repopulate Osgiliath - and then there is the matter of your however-many-times-great grandmother.

"Of course I'm on your side - of course I am - and I'm sure I can bring the council around. But first... first I need you to promise something."

Of course, it could be a coincidence that the two changes in the hereditary nature of the Stewardship both come at times when the direct royal line is extinct, and there's a decent second claimant available. But I'm not sure I'd bet a silver castar on it.

hS, Chair of the Committee for Stewardly Misconduct (I guess)