What do we Know About Radagast?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Yes, he was quite happy. But we are talking about the hypothetical case of a bodyless Radagast after the eventual death of his body. Why would he not be willing to return? He cant really "do" anything in Middle-earth without a body, can he?

I don't know. He might still be pretty happy to hang out among the nature he loves even in bodiless form. I think it's a possibility. Though on the flip side the loss of a physical body could indeed be the wake up call that reminds him of his initial purpose there and of the land that may be awaiting his return.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't know. He might still be pretty happy to hang out among the nature he loves even in bodiless form. I think it's a possibility. Though on the flip side the loss of a physical body could indeed be the wake up call that reminds him of his initial purpose there and of the land that may be awaiting his return.

The most parallel case I can think of is Melian, who forsook the Undying Land and seemingly bound herself into corporeal form. She ended up returning to Valinor when Thingol died, because the thing she had fallen in love with and stayed for was now gone.

In the case of Radagast, he loved the natural world, and that was not gone. Assuming he even could 'die of old age' (denethorthefirst, you assert that he must, but I don't know what you're basing that on), I'm inclined to the view that he would stay because of that love. He may not be able to create a new body, but so what? He could still linger over the things he adored, in the same manner as Tolkien originally saw the elves doing.

Of course, part of the reason I think this is that I remain convinced he's supposed to be someone or -thing from mythology. Like how Numenor is the source of the Atlantis story, or Frodo's song became 'the cow jumped over the moon', the passing-mention wizard whose name ends in 'gast' - and how close is that to 'ghost'? - really seems like a character from the primary world sneaking his way into the Legendarium. There's even a thread on the Downs about that...

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Assuming he even could 'die of old age' (denethorthefirst, you assert that he must, but I don't know what you're basing that on) [/url]

Because Tolkien wrote that the Istari aged. For example Saruman had black hair when he arrived in Lindon in ca 1000 T.A. but by the time of the War of the Ring his hair was almost completely white. So his appearance went from middle-aged to rather old. Same with Gandalf. Frodo noticed that Gandalf looked older: "but secretly he thought that Gandalf looked older and more careworn" (Lord of the Rings, The Shadow of the Past). The aging process cant go on indefinitely, can it? If Saruman went from middle-aged to very old in a rather short time period (2000 years, that is nothing for a Maia), then how much longer could he go on? The bodies of the Istari are essentially human. In my opinion they would, eventually, "die", it would only be a matter of time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

The aging process cant go on indefinitely, can it? If Saruman went from middle-aged to very old in a rather short time period (2000 years, that is nothing for a Maia), then how much longer could he go on? The bodies of the Istari are essentially human. In my opinion they would, eventually, "die", it would only be a matter of time.

Except that the UT essay regarding the Istari states:

....because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

Why would the Valar have sent the Istari in such a form as could disintegrate prior to their being able to complete their mission?

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why would the Valar have sent the Istari in such a form as could disintegrate prior to their being able to complete their mission?

Maybe for the same reasons why they sent them in human bodies in the first place, to experience the world from a human perspective, to share all the bodily experiences, the pains and limitations that humans face: "clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain" (Unfinished Tales). Maybe the finite lifespan also added a bit of pressure to their mission, that they cannot wait and stay idle indefinitely. They have a purpose and must act. Of course they were still extremely long-lived and had ample time, maybe their bodies would only have died after 10 000 years - its all speculative of course.

I have wondered about the quote you mentioned:

"because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.".

But I have always interpreted that quote to mean that the bodies of the Istari did not die during a specific time (from the in-universe-writers perspective, almost 2000 years, from their arrival in Lindon until the War of the Ring). A normal human being would have died during that time period, but the Istari did not, because of their spirits. They survived for 2000 years, for 2000 years their spirits powered their human bodies. At least thats how I have always understood that quote. The quote does not state that the Istari will never die of old age. Just that they did not die of old age during a specific timespan, but that does not mean that they will not, eventually, die.

If their bodies are unable to die of old age, then how do you explain the aging process? Is the mentioned aging just cosmetic? Will it stop at some point? Then why did Tolkien mention it at all? Of course one could argue that the Elves also aged (and even grew beards and developed signs of old age, for example Cirdan), but were still immortal (except for the inevitable "fading" of their bodies). But the elven aging process (beyond maturity) seems to be more a physical manifestation of psychological experiences and trauma. Maybe the aging of the Istari worked in a similar way?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

But I have always interpreted that quote to mean that the bodies of the Istari did not die during a specific time (from the in-universe-writers perspective, almost 2000 years, from their arrival in Lindon until the War of the Ring). A normal human being would have died during that time period, but the Istari did not, because of their spirits. They survived for 2000 years, for 2000 years their spirits powered their human bodies. At least thats how I have always understood that quote. The quote does not state that the Istari will never die of old age. Just that they did not die of old age during a specific timespan, but that does not mean that they will not, eventually, die.

In the same UT essay is given a snippet from the sketch in which the Valar chose the particular Maiar for the mission:

...[The Istari] must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh.

No mention of eventual physical death from aging among the perils.

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

If their bodies are unable to die of old age, then how do you explain the aging process? Is the mentioned aging just cosmetic? Will it stop at some point? Then why did Tolkien mention it at all?

The above quote references that, I think. The aging would help in not scaring the mortals in ME. There are other references to the Istari being clothed in forms "weak and humble" for the same reason. And it is noted in the essay that on landing at Mithlond, Gandalf was already grey-haired, and looked more aged than the others. I impart that to a general theme in Tolkien's works that humility accomplishes more than pride, and since Saruman was described as having a "noble mien and bearing", maybe that has some weight.